Dr Elaine Ingham/compost

[Timbo1080]

Haven't applied K in the last 20 years. Haven't applied P in anger (To correct 'indices') for 20 years....Have used Biosolids for one year on 1/5th of the farm, and DAP at 167kg/ha down the spout with OSR for 2 years....At predicted crop offtake, and based on 2 years, that would have been over approx 2/5ths of the farm.... Bale all straw. Yields have remained at or improved over the 10 year average prior. Soil 'Indices' have all increased. High Mag (If you believe 'indexes') Calcareous Soil. Wet West. Haven't used Lime for 12 years. The only reason I haven't used any P, K, Lime etc (Despite all the fancy VRA capability), is that our P indices on another farm that we had just taken on, were sampled twice over the course of 2 years (Precision sampled etc....New to us farm).....The first tests came back at -0 P across the board. Didn't add anything, and baled everything for 2 years. resampled, and the indices came back at 2+ to 3- P. Well before i'd heard of Dr Ingham, but i'd like to think it is explained by her well, but more so, is the testing reliable? Sample methodology, lab analysis etc?
We have had our texture analysis re-run too (Surely our soil type can't change can it?!). One field for example came back approx 59% Clay, 22% Silt, 19% Sand. Resampled 4 years later, the same field 38% Clay, 32% Silt, 30% Sand IIRC.

I do do a lot of sap analysis and Brix though, and use a lot of trace elements. (Which we didn't in the prior period).

 

[scotston]

I do agree that simplicity is economy with money and effort. I feel that there are a number of folk who have tinkered around the principle but not necessarily used the microscope to assess and react. The 2015 thread was started by @martian and endorsed by @Clive but the thread comes to an end without much conclusion even though there's a picture of Clive's lovely microscope. There was an attempt in January to bring it back but without luck. Being fully organic, using covers and having allowed the heavy tillage of spuds to come to an end this year suggests my ground should be OK. But it ain't great. We now shallow plough and drill/press. This means we upset the mulch in the top 4" but our stubbles are pretty green when we go in with grass or weeds so we have to do something. I have a Masters in Engineering and my sister in law is a microbiologist. Not exactly the A-team of soil science but not afraid to make a go at it. Our farm is sufficiently diverse that we can afford to 'play' with a chunk of land for trials. It's a matter of finding the time for the learning curve. Who would be my go to for helping me get started with the examination of my existing biology, the interpretation of results and then the construction of a suitable compost to remediate?

 

[SilliamWhale]

I do agree that simplicity is economy with money and effort. I feel that there are a number of folk who have tinkered around the principle but not necessarily used the microscope to assess and react. The 2015 thread was started by @martian and endorsed by @Clive but the thread comes to an end without much conclusion even though there's a picture of Clive's lovely microscope. There was an attempt in January to bring it back but without luck. Being fully organic, using covers and having allowed the heavy tillage of spuds to come to an end this year suggests my ground should be OK. But it ain't great. We now shallow plough and drill/press. This means we upset the mulch in the top 4" but our stubbles are pretty green when we go in with grass or weeds so we have to do something. I have a Masters in Engineering and my sister in law is a microbiologist. Not exactly the A-team of soil science but not afraid to make a go at it. Our farm is sufficiently diverse that we can afford to 'play' with a chunk of land for trials. It's a matter of finding the time for the learning curve. Who would be my go to for helping me get started with the examination of my existing biology, the interpretation of results and then the construction of a suitable compost to remediate?

I honestly don't need you need to examine your existing biology. or make a "suitable" compost. You just need to point yourself in a certain direction and crack on and keep as much money as you can in your pocket. Compost is good, fym is good, grazing animals are good, green manures are good

If organic you know you will have to use tillage and you know probably over the longer term you will leak a small amount of p and k that cannot be replaced by the stuff conventional boys use. I have read lots of soil science books, and there is a lot of overclaiming and overmarketing.

If someone makes a claim ask for the evidence and make your own mind up if that evidence is compelling. The index system is still very very important in my opinion

 

[SilliamWhale]

Haven't applied K in the last 20 years. Haven't applied P in anger (To correct 'indices') for 20 years....Have used Biosolids for one year on 1/5th of the farm, and DAP at 167kg/ha down the spout with OSR for 2 years....At predicted crop offtake, and based on 2 years, that would have been over approx 2/5ths of the farm.... Bale all straw. Yields have remained at or improved over the 10 year average prior. Soil 'Indices' have all increased. High Mag (If you believe 'indexes') Calcareous Soil. Wet West. Haven't used Lime for 12 years. The only reason I haven't used any P, K, Lime etc (Despite all the fancy VRA capability), is that our P indices on another farm that we had just taken on, were sampled twice over the course of 2 years (Precision sampled etc....New to us farm).....The first tests came back at -0 P across the board. Didn't add anything, and baled everything for 2 years. resampled, and the indices came back at 2+ to 3- P. Well before i'd heard of Dr Ingham, but i'd like to think it is explained by her well, but more so, is the testing reliable? Sample methodology, lab analysis etc?
We have had our texture analysis re-run too (Surely our soil type can't change can it?!). One field for example came back approx 59% Clay, 22% Silt, 19% Sand. Resampled 4 years later, the same field 38% Clay, 32% Silt, 30% Sand IIRC.

I do do a lot of sap analysis and Brix though, and use a lot of trace elements. (Which we didn't in the prior period).

I think sampling can vary widely. The information is only as good as the test. That said I do think less tillage makes P more available

 

[scotston]

I honestly don't need you need to examine your existing biology. or make a "suitable" compost. You just need to point yourself in a certain direction and crack on and keep as much money as you can in your pocket. Compost is good, fym is good, grazing animals are good, green manures are good

If organic you know you will have to use tillage and you know probably over the longer term you will leak a small amount of p and k that cannot be replaced by the stuff conventional boys use. I have read lots of soil science books, and there is a lot of overclaiming and overmarketing.

If someone makes a claim ask for the evidence and make your own mind up if that evidence is compelling. The index system is still very very important in my opinion

very solid advice there; that's going in the back pocket. The claim Ingham is making is that all of the elements are available in our soil (infinitely), we just need the right biology to make it plant available. I'm asking the good people of TFF if they have any evidence to substantiate that claim and then I can decide if it's compelling. I think the thing is that it's a really good 'hook' - a holy grail of sorts. But of course no one has ever found the holy grail... Apart from Indiana of course.

Separately by what mechanism does P become either lost or locked up due to tillage?

 

[SilliamWhale]

very solid advice there; that's going in the back pocket. The claim Ingham is making is that all of the elements are available in our soil (infinitely), we just need the right biology to make it plant available. I'm asking the good people of TFF if they have any evidence to substantiate that claim and then I can decide if it's compelling. I think the thing is that it's a really good 'hook' - a holy grail of sorts. But of course no one has ever found the holy grail... Apart from Indiana of course.

Separately by what mechanism does P become either lost or locked up due to tillage?

And it has an element of truth to it in that everything is cyclical.

However! - there is yet to be the compelling weight of evidence to prove this on a practical level. Remember we get a lot of rain so that leaks the system, soil erosion from wind and water takes away our most fertile particles, animals and crops take it off etc. Some soils have high CEC so can hold the nutrients etc.

You lose P either in the exported crop/ livestock, or through erosion (p clings to the smallest particles and the smallest particles are the most fertile). There are other ways as well but can't think when typing on phone.

 

[Timbo1080]

I think sampling can vary widely. The information is only as good as the test. That said I do think less tillage makes P more available

I completely agree, especially if you also add '.....as good as the test, AND the sampling methodology'. Look at the land drain outfalls in a heavily tilled field, versus a no-tilled field....Couple that with the finer particles of Clay and Silt being the at the more 'philic' end of the mineral spectrum & you can see where some of the P is being lost.
If I trusted the 'indices', i would have spent an absolute fortune on P by now. I can only make the assumption that either the index system is flawed, or that the soil is having its minerals made more available....Perhaps by the biology.

 

[Timbo1080]

very solid advice there; that's going in the back pocket. The claim Ingham is making is that all of the elements are available in our soil (infinitely), we just need the right biology to make it plant available. I'm asking the good people of TFF if they have any evidence to substantiate that claim and then I can decide if it's compelling. I think the thing is that it's a really good 'hook' - a holy grail of sorts. But of course no one has ever found the holy grail... Apart from Indiana of course.

Separately by what mechanism does P become either lost or locked up due to tillage?

The only evidence that I can give, is that which I posted above, and does fit Dr Ingham's narrative. I'm happy to carry on with this for the present time, but who knows....Maybe i'll fall off the mineral cliff at some point?! I should/would love to lash on loads of P on one part of a field, following RB209 or whatever its called, for a decade, and see if it makes any difference to yields and indices, but if i'm honest, i can't be arsed & would probably mess up a proper trial anyway.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I completely agree, especially if you also add '.....as good as the test, AND the sampling methodology'. Look at the land drain outfalls in a heavily tilled field, versus a no-tilled field....Couple that with the finer particles of Clay and Silt being the at the more 'philic' end of the mineral spectrum & you can see where some of the P is being lost.
If I trusted the 'indices', i would have spent an absolute fortune on P by now. I can only make the assumption that either the index system is flawed, or that the soil is having its minerals made more available....Perhaps by the biology.

I don't think the index system is flawed. I think its very useful but its limited.

At the end of the day we are using a 1kg bag of soil to try and extrapolate decisions to do with soil and plant interactions over 10 acres.

Personally on my farm I don't like seeing any indices below 2 at any time and always feel it is money well spent either via FYm, bagged or fibrophos. I do sell straw though

 

[martian]

Separately by what mechanism does P become either lost or locked up due to tillage?

P locks up pretty quick once applied, something like 94% is unavailable to the plants. The advantage of not tilling is that mycorrhizal fungi can grow without being smashed up by cultivating metal and these clever creatures will make the formerly locked up P available to the plants. The joy of healthy soils.
Also, some interesting stuff about compost making from the Land Gardeners, talking at Groundswell last summer:

 

[d williams]

My opinion is you are better off keeping things simple and using resources such as this:

View attachment 994064

Which is as succint and informative as you can get.

This is similar to the old rules as a tenant farmer where nothing should leave the farm and replace what’s been taken
So converted into fym/compost and put back onto farm

 

[scotston]

P locks up pretty quick once applied, something like 94% is unavailable to the plants. The advantage of not tilling is that mycorrhizal fungi can grow without being smashed up by cultivating metal and these clever creatures will make the formerly locked up P available to the plants. The joy of healthy soils.
Also, some interesting stuff about compost making from the Land Gardeners, talking at Groundswell last summer:

That was solid gold, many thanks. Exactly what I was needing/wanting. I like fact they did it in a not technical kind of way - tried it, plants grew better. No microscope just press on. The fellow from cornwall was also good as he said spreading compost was too inefficient but the faff of making compost tea was much better. Very interesting.

I'm now convinced that making compost is the right thing. Anyone know where I can get a compost turner? I'm going to have a real go at this.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

That was solid gold, many thanks. Exactly what I was needing/wanting. I like fact they did it in a not technical kind of way - tried it, plants grew better. No microscope just press on. The fellow from cornwall was also good as he said spreading compost was too inefficient but the faff of making compost tea was much better. Very interesting.

I'm now convinced that making compost is the right thing. Anyone know where I can get a compost turner? I'm going to have a real go at this.

I am thinking the same, wondering about digging up some clay as well and wondering if it can be turned with a digger?

 

[martian]

Anyone know where I can get a compost turner?

It's not easy...there are a few makers about but no-one selling them in the UK afaik. We've tried to get a european manufacturer to exhibit at Groundswell, but they couldn't be arsed for some reason. You see quite a few on Continent, we've told them there's a big potential market here, but...

The trendy thing now is Bokashi, which involves sprinkling magic dust and not turning amongst other things; you certainly end up with a lot more material. Turning a few times reduces a big heap to a small hump (and presumably a lot of CO2 in the atmosphere)

 

[scotston]

I am thinking the same, wondering about digging up some clay as well and wondering if it can be turned with a digger?

I'm really curious about the clay aspect. Albert Howard mentions top soil but not clay. Other folks talk about what ever is native to your soil is what the biology is going to need. Clay is definitely not our thing here. Rocks are! I might try and contact the land gardeners. Most sensible folk here have said to keep it simple, keep the cost down. But those lassies were adamant. Again the science should be able to answer the questions.

 

[scotston]

It's not easy...there are a few makers about but no-one selling them in the UK afaik. We've tried to get a european manufacturer to exhibit at Groundswell, but they couldn't be arsed for some reason. You see quite a few on Continent, we've told them there's a big potential market here, but...

The trendy thing now is Bokashi, which involves sprinkling magic dust and not turning amongst other things; you certainly end up with a lot more material. Turning a few times reduces a big heap to a small hump (and presumably a lot of CO2 in the atmosphere)

I've only just stumbled on bokashi. Once again the lack of science in what is happening in a compost heap is staggering. Nuffield scholarships all over the place...

I see a company Doyle engineering seem to be one of a couple of turner guys. I think CMC were another. Something will come up as long as I keep pushing the googly buttons.

 

[Barleycorn]

I've only just stumbled on bokashi. Once again the lack of science in what is happening in a compost heap is staggering. Nuffield scholarships all over the place...

I see a company Doyle engineering seem to be one of a couple of turner guys. I think CMC were another. Something will come up as long as I keep pushing the googly buttons.

I have a Menart, but the UK dealer is pretty hopeless.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

It's not easy...there are a few makers about but no-one selling them in the UK afaik. We've tried to get a european manufacturer to exhibit at Groundswell, but they couldn't be arsed for some reason. You see quite a few on Continent, we've told them there's a big potential market here, but...

The trendy thing now is Bokashi, which involves sprinkling magic dust and not turning amongst other things; you certainly end up with a lot more material. Turning a few times reduces a big heap to a small hump (and presumably a lot of CO2 in the atmosphere)

but.......it the object is to inoculate the soil biology with the microbes, is there a need to spread tons and tons of stuff? Maybe spreading a "light sprinkling" would be quicker?

 

[scotston]

but.......it the object is to inoculate the soil biology with the microbes, is there a need to spread tons and tons of stuff? Maybe spreading a "light sprinkling" would be quicker?

I think that's why the nice kiwi fella from Dorset said it wasn't efficient and he makes compost tea. But then confusion reigns as folk say spread 10t/ha and others 1t/ha. Nae idea what the right thing is but some definitely better than nowt.

 

[scotston]

I have a Menart, but the UK dealer is pretty hopeless.

I have a spanner gasifier and there's no dealer! Does the menart work ok and in response to Mr Bach what spread rate works for you?