Drill dilemma....

[Spud]

We have an armoury of drills, but....there is always a better way!

Current lineup:
2001 Kockerling AT300, bought from a member on this very forum a few years ago. Its now mostly used for drilling beans 5" deep, which it is very good at. It leaves too rough a job ideally for cereals, and is very power hungry. It used to drill cover crops as well, less so these days.

2018 Moore (3m mounted) bought via a Countryside productivity grant in the first round. Drills 300ac of cover crops, and spring oats into about 30ac of cc. Also wheat after beans usually too.. Its contour following is poor, and floating ring Guttler packer a long way from ideal in anything but dry going. (We've just today removed most of the floating rings and fitted some farmertastic scrapers.)

2015 3m Pottinger combination, with ADD discs. Superb. Cant fault it all, but it doesn't fit our longer term plan of decreasing cultivation and increasing direct drilling. It will stay, because for things like wheat after spuds its pretty unbeatable.

1996 4m Amazone combi (suffolk coulters) does very little really. Sometimes comes out to drill winter barley behind the plough if the Pottinger is busy drilling wheat on strong land. Power harrow used for beet seedbeds, or it'd probably of been sold. It was bought originally to increase drilling output, but narrow roads and suffolk coulters have dictated that it wasn't the best choice.

I'd like to reduce this to just two, the Pottinger and a more versatile direct drill.
Having watched others, and considered our situation, I'm leaning towards a leading cutting disc with a sowing tine behind. Not too sure on band width, but need to minimise disturbance, and would like to keep unsown bands under 200mm wide. Contour following important (a Kockerling strength, Moore weakness) Needs to be able to cope with fym, cc's, general trash, and any possible soil type.

The Virkar looks good, but no 4m machine, 6m likely beyond budget. We couldn't cope with the wheels running on the drilling either, thats a big no.
Claydon LD option interesting - no contour following, and I question its suitability for beans. The elements are swappable, which is good, but makes it too expensive for our area.

I'm considering converting the Kockerling from 7x 17" shares, to 14x VOS openers. The idea is in the early stages of research, so comments/ideas welcome.
I would sell all but the Pottinger and invest in a more suitable solution, but I like to prove the principle of wacky ideas is sound at low cost first, and I cannot sell the Moore til late 2023 due to the grant constraints.
We have this spring built a low disturbance tine bar to couple to the front of the Moore - its ok, but blocks the drill in wetter heavier going. There's better ways, I am sure.

There is doubtless other options I've not thought about, so over to the TFF collective wisdom!

Cheers, Spud

 

[Shutesy]

Roughly how many acres are you looking to drill each year with cover crops and winter and spring crops?

 

[Spud]

Roughly how many acres are you looking to drill each year with cover crops and winter and spring crops?

About 700 total

 

[Hammer]

My 6m Virkar has bolt on wing extensions which I believe are added to a smaller (4.5m?) model, so I'm fairly sure you can get a smaller model.

 

[Spud]

My 6m Virkar has bolt on wing extensions which I believe are added to a smaller (4.5m?) model, so I'm fairly sure you can get a smaller model.

How do you get on with it? The disc & coulter arrangement looks superb, it's carrying the weight on wheels running on drilled ground in wet seasons like this that concerns me most.

 

[Virkardd]

The Virkar Dynamic DC starts at 4.5 meters but you can specify 4 meters if needed. In terms of the rear transport wheels running on the drilling,we have not seen any issues at all in the growing crop. The rear wheels only carry around 30% of the weight of the drill rest is applied to the Coulters and to the back of the tractor.

The drill is also not that heavy the strength comes from its modular design so gets its strength from that.

In terms of contour following the 35cm of Coulter travel leads to very even seed placement. And with the front cutting disc and the seeding tine always running in line dealing with cover crops and crop residue is no issue. You will be surprised just how much cover crop residue it can deal with for a direct tine drill.

The drill has certainly gained a lot of interest in a very short time and the machines we have working across the country are running very well.

It is a pretty unique design for a direct drill with the 35cm Coulter travel, the under frame clearnce, Coulter stagger, on the move pressure control, steering rear axle and the ability if needs be change between 19/25cm row spacings.

It is also very easy to use and run we run our own 6meter on 200hp but 160hp would be more than adiquate. 4 meter would only require 140hp so keeping weight of the field.

We do run a demo machine that's working its way round the country or we have plenty of crops drilled at our own farm that farmers come down to look at.

The Virkar Dynamic DC reading of what you need from a drill will tick all those boxes and will last you a long time.

I have plenty of videos and crop pictures if you want me to send you some or you are more than welcome to come down to ours see the drill and walk round some of the crops that have been drilled.

 

[Warp Land Farmer]

The Virkar Dynamic DC starts at 4.5 meters but you can specify 4 meters if needed. In terms of the rear transport wheels running on the drilling,we have not seen any issues at all in the growing crop. The rear wheels only carry around 30% of the weight of the drill rest is applied to the Coulters and to the back of the tractor.

The drill is also not that heavy the strength comes from its modular design so gets its strength from that.

In terms of contour following the 35cm of Coulter travel leads to very even seed placement. And with the front cutting disc and the seeding tine always running in line dealing with cover crops and crop residue is no issue. You will be surprised just how much cover crop residue it can deal with for a direct tine drill.

The drill has certainly gained a lot of interest in a very short time and the machines we have working across the country are running very well.

It is a pretty unique design for a direct drill with the 35cm Coulter travel, the under frame clearnce, Coulter stagger, on the move pressure control, steering rear axle and the ability if needs be change between 19/25cm row spacings.

It is also very easy to use and run we run our own 6meter on 200hp but 160hp would be more than adiquate. 4 meter would only require 140hp so keeping weight of the field.

We do run a demo machine that's working its way round the country or we have plenty of crops drilled at our own farm that farmers come down to look at.

The Virkar Dynamic DC reading of what you need from a drill will tick all those boxes and will last you a long time.

I have plenty of videos and crop pictures if you want me to send you some or you are more than welcome to come down to ours see the drill and walk round some of the crops that have been drilled.

What cost would a 4m drill be?

 

[Spud]

The Virkar Dynamic DC starts at 4.5 meters but you can specify 4 meters if needed. In terms of the rear transport wheels running on the drilling,we have not seen any issues at all in the growing crop. The rear wheels only carry around 30% of the weight of the drill rest is applied to the Coulters and to the back of the tractor.

The drill is also not that heavy the strength comes from its modular design so gets its strength from that.

In terms of contour following the 35cm of Coulter travel leads to very even seed placement. And with the front cutting disc and the seeding tine always running in line dealing with cover crops and crop residue is no issue. You will be surprised just how much cover crop residue it can deal with for a direct tine drill.

The drill has certainly gained a lot of interest in a very short time and the machines we have working across the country are running very well.

It is a pretty unique design for a direct drill with the 35cm Coulter travel, the under frame clearnce, Coulter stagger, on the move pressure control, steering rear axle and the ability if needs be change between 19/25cm row spacings.

It is also very easy to use and run we run our own 6meter on 200hp but 160hp would be more than adiquate. 4 meter would only require 140hp so keeping weight of the field.

We do run a demo machine that's working its way round the country or we have plenty of crops drilled at our own farm that farmers come down to look at.

The Virkar Dynamic DC reading of what you need from a drill will tick all those boxes and will last you a long time.

I have plenty of videos and crop pictures if you want me to send you some or you are more than welcome to come down to ours see the drill and walk round some of the crops that have been drilled.

Thank you for that. Does the weight carried by the wheels not vary according to the terrain and soil type? ie they carry more in soft ground?
We have need for a shallow chit in some fields, to level them or encourage grassweeds to grow, and on heavier land in a wet time the drills wheels would compact this, leaving unsightly marks and potentially impeding germination.
I do like your coulter arrangement a lot though, could it sow beans at 100mm+ deep?

 

[Chae1]

Nice Novag for sale in classifieds.

 

[Spud]

Nice Novag for sale in classifieds.

There is. Shall we say it's a bit above budget....and I'd need a bigger tractor!

 

[Chae1]

There is. Shall we say it's a bit above budget....and I'd need a bigger tractor!

Was on a 828 at groundswell. Would think your fergies would handle it.

 

[Spud]

Was on a 828 at groundswell. Would think your fergies would handle it.

An 828 is a lot bigger than a 7720, but we'd probably cope. Price tag more than double what I can justify though, and the running costs would make me cry!

 

[Rob Holmes]

How about a Claydon with the new LD setup?

Opening disks with twin tines and option of putting fert down spout as well, or it can be easily converted to a standard strip til drill if you want to transition from standard cultivation towards more DD

@charlie@claydon

 

[Virkardd]

Thank you for that. Does the weight carried by the wheels not vary according to the terrain and soil type? ie they carry more in soft ground?
We have need for a shallow chit in some fields, to level them or encourage grassweeds to grow, and on heavier land in a wet time the drills wheels would compact this, leaving unsightly marks and potentially impeding germination.
I do like your coulter arrangement a lot though, could it sow beans at 100mm+ deep?

Yes depending on how much Coulter pressure you are running will then change how much weight is being carried on the rear transport wheels. To be fair even in wet conditions we have never seed a issue with the wheelings not coming up on 25cm row spacings you only have one Coulter seeding in the middle of the rear transport wheels so it's not a issue.

We have used the drill in many scenarios and in terms of tillage In front as long as it is a shallow tillage of 2/3 inches then drill works very well and wheelings aren't a issue.

You can easily get beans direct into stubble at 4 inches using the bean Coulter.

The Coulter arrangement and Coulter following really is something to behold. With direct drills you need the contour following to ensure even seed depth alot of direct drills are too rigid leading to inconsistent seed depth.

We are also developing a inter row hoe point for the drill that we will test in the spring. With the drill on 25cm row spacings and with the steering rear axle we plan to be able to weed in between the rows with the drill leading to a even more versatile machine. And because the machine is fairly light weight crop damage is kept to a minimum.

 

[Hammer]

How do you get on with it? The disc & coulter arrangement looks superb, it's carrying the weight on wheels running on drilled ground in wet seasons like this that concerns me most.

Really happy with it. I've drilled around 1000 acres with it so far, rape, cover crops and wheat before the rain in September. Seems to cope with any amount of trash/cover and will penetrate when the ground is rock hard. Seed coverage is good and depth control excellent. But yes, I have the same concern as you about the weight on the wheels at the back on wet clays - we've only had 2 drilling days in nearly 5 weeks here due to rain and on those days I've used an old mounted tine drill instead.

 

[jh.]

We have an armoury of drills, but....


Claydon LD option interesting - no contour following, and I question its suitability for beans. The elements are swappable, which is good, but makes it too expensive for our area.

I think it's great that claydon are offering so many options on the one base machine . With your tatties in the rotation I'd think the option of being able to stick a deeper working tine in , as well as the LD option in other parts of rotation would be ideal . Plus you wouldn't need to buy every option in the first year.

When I demoed the standard set up I wasn't impressed with the consistency of seed depth but this may have been made worse by my combine wheelings from a plough based system and wet harvest . I already see how much firmer and better the combine has been carried in the demo area this harvest.

I had been leaning more to mzuri preferring the idea of press wheels to aid seed depth control but now like the claydon for not having the frame wheels running in the seed row for stickier going.

Disc machine wise I did like the look of the avatar with row cleaners to shift a bit of the residue and allow the sun to warm the scottish soil a bit quicker but if I had the acres to justify the novag , it would be my choice as imo that inverted T just seems to make so much sense . Plus Clive had mentioned else where he felt it would perform better than the avatar in heavier soils.

 

[Clive]

We have an armoury of drills, but....there is always a better way!

Current lineup:
2001 Kockerling AT300, bought from a member on this very forum a few years ago. Its now mostly used for drilling beans 5" deep, which it is very good at. It leaves too rough a job ideally for cereals, and is very power hungry. It used to drill cover crops as well, less so these days.

2018 Moore (3m mounted) bought via a Countryside productivity grant in the first round. Drills 300ac of cover crops, and spring oats into about 30ac of cc. Also wheat after beans usually too.. Its contour following is poor, and floating ring Guttler packer a long way from ideal in anything but dry going. (We've just today removed most of the floating rings and fitted some farmertastic scrapers.)

2015 3m Pottinger combination, with ADD discs. Superb. Cant fault it all, but it doesn't fit our longer term plan of decreasing cultivation and increasing direct drilling. It will stay, because for things like wheat after spuds its pretty unbeatable.

1996 4m Amazone combi (suffolk coulters) does very little really. Sometimes comes out to drill winter barley behind the plough if the Pottinger is busy drilling wheat on strong land. Power harrow used for beet seedbeds, or it'd probably of been sold. It was bought originally to increase drilling output, but narrow roads and suffolk coulters have dictated that it wasn't the best choice.

I'd like to reduce this to just two, the Pottinger and a more versatile direct drill.
Having watched others, and considered our situation, I'm leaning towards a leading cutting disc with a sowing tine behind. Not too sure on band width, but need to minimise disturbance, and would like to keep unsown bands under 200mm wide. Contour following important (a Kockerling strength, Moore weakness) Needs to be able to cope with fym, cc's, general trash, and any possible soil type.

The Virkar looks good, but no 4m machine, 6m likely beyond budget. We couldn't cope with the wheels running on the drilling either, thats a big no.
Claydon LD option interesting - no contour following, and I question its suitability for beans. The elements are swappable, which is good, but makes it too expensive for our area.

I'm considering converting the Kockerling from 7x 17" shares, to 14x VOS openers. The idea is in the early stages of research, so comments/ideas welcome.
I would sell all but the Pottinger and invest in a more suitable solution, but I like to prove the principle of wacky ideas is sound at low cost first, and I cannot sell the Moore til late 2023 due to the grant constraints.
We have this spring built a low disturbance tine bar to couple to the front of the Moore - its ok, but blocks the drill in wetter heavier going. There's better ways, I am sure.

There is doubtless other options I've not thought about, so over to the TFF collective wisdom!

Cheers, Spud

How about a Boutgault VOS converted CO with the Coverdale disc fitted ahead of the tine ?

 

[Clive]

I think it's great that claydon are offering so many options on the one base machine . With your tatties in the rotation I'd think the option of being able to stick a deeper working tine in , as well as the LD option in other parts of rotation would be ideal . Plus you wouldn't need to buy every option in the first year.

When I demoed the standard set up I wasn't impressed with the consistency of seed depth but this may have been made worse by my combine wheelings from a plough based system and wet harvest . I already see how much firmer and better the combine has been carried in the demo area this harvest.

I had been leaning more to mzuri preferring the idea of press wheels to aid seed depth control but now like the claydon for not having the frame wheels running in the seed row for stickier going.

Disc machine wise I did like the look of the avatar with row cleaners to shift a bit of the residue and allow the sun to warm the scottish soil a bit quicker but if I had the acres to justify the novag , it would be my choice as imo that inverted T just seems to make so much sense . Plus Clive had mentioned else where he felt it would perform better than the avatar in heavier soils.

Novag is the ultimate for anyone with heavy soils and the inverted T is the only opener that has the benefits of discs and tines agronomically BUT its not cheap and is quite power hungry

Despite that if I farmed heavy land and wanted to zero-till drill it would be my choice, on lighter stuff we get away with the Avatar / CO though

 

[Spud]

How about a Boutgault VOS converted CO with the Coverdale disc fitted ahead of the tine ?

Not a daft idea, I've not heard of a coverdale disc, have you a pic?

 

[Spud]

Novag is the ultimate for anyone with heavy soils and the inverted T is the only opener that has the benefits of discs and tines agronomically BUT its not cheap and is quite power hungry

Despite that if I farmed heavy land and wanted to zero-till drill it would be my choice, on lighter stuff we get away with the Avatar / CO though

How does a SimTech compare, in your opinion? iirc they have a leading disc followed by inverted T coulter.