Dropping Nitrogen rates

[Will7]

Something's got to give with crop inputs at current prices. 3 major Wheat costs are
Blackgrass control £126/ha
T1 &T2 fungicides £75/ha
Nitrogen 200kgN £97/ha
Reductions in fixed costs and cults can be discussed til the cows come home.

Your first cost is the problem, and in that I assume you have not costed repeated cultivations and roundup pre drilling so the real cost of blackgrass control is much higher. Probably equivalent to your SFP if you are getting multiple stale seedbeds.
I know nothing of you, your farm or system but until you have this under control the likelihood is you will remain uncompetitive when commodity prices are depressed. I am in a similar position hence my wheat area this year is just enough to satisfy the requirements of my "third" crop.

 

[Neddy flanders]

I fully understand that Fixed costs are variable. Tinkering with them by strip tilling or changing rotation is a 2 or three year gamble. I'm sure many farmers who haven't converted to zero tillage don't because they can't afford the unknown yield drop in the first few years. Around here on heavy land there are very few (none) who zero till winter wheat. The lack of a stale seed bed and stimulating bgrass at the time of drilling must be relevant.
All I wondered is, in the short term, if I don't buy 2 extra lorry loads of Lithan, how much would yield suffer. I think I know the answer.

 

[4course]

I reckon the cost of blackgrass is the biggest problem for cereal growers esp in these times of reduced commodity price cant see how it can be very profitable to grow wheat and blackgrass so I thank the lord we dont have any yet but im starting to wonder why we dont which totally dissuades me from going down the no plough route and spending the capital on gear to do it or getting a contractor bill but then im a luddite in parts

 

[B'o'B]

All I wondered is, in the short term, if I don't buy 2 extra lorry loads of Lithan, how much would yield suffer. I think I know the answer.

How much yield do you feel that last 60kg of N gives you? And how have you arrived at your answer? Every farm and field is different in how well N is used.

 

[yellow belly]

the first thing to do be fore changing n rates is to look at your feed wheat protein levels over the last few years
if it is below 10.5 to 11.5 then you have not used enough if it is above 12.5 then you may be using too much

I would be very wary of reducing n rates below 210 kg as that is not enough for the amount of nitrogen being removed by a descent yielding crop

the other aspect of n rates is that higher rates in wheat leave a bit more in the soil for the following crop so if rape is the following crop extra nitrogen is needed if low rates are used on the the wheat

I found this showed up when we used to put extra urea spray on milling wheat it showed up to the line in the rape establishment

this year I had some wheat that was 9.5 % protein at 4 tonne an acre with 220 kgs the following rape crop could do with 60 kg in the autumn but we are only allowed to use 30 so in future I will be looking at extra on wheat going into rape then adjusting the applied n in the autumn depending on the protein level in the wheat

 

[TelesnaAg]

Personally there's a few things you can look at, first...the type of N you apply, can you get hold of chook sh*t? And try that pre plant then do a tissue analysis compared to crop with the urea N...see if you can get a more efficient use of N.

Second, rotation, after beans would require theoretically less N than after OSR...a legume based cover over winter would help spring barley etc...

Foliar application, you could try doing the first application with urea nd sulphur, then do a section with liquid N, a couple of passes at 20 l/ ha of UAN 42 etc...with 100l/ha applied in right condition won't burn...first application throw in copper zinc and mang...post the winter...gets the plant carrying nutrients around alot quicker and makes foliar N use more efficient.

I think you have options besides doing the norm, if you wish to long term cut N then you will need to trial biological farming like Clive, if you just remove urea based N you will see a yield reduction unless there is soil N there from previous crops.

Trials are hard work and take some organising but once doing them they make the job more interesting IMO.

Ant...

 

[shakerator]

Your first cost is the problem, and in that I assume you have not costed repeated cultivations and roundup pre drilling so the real cost of blackgrass control is much higher. Probably equivalent to your SFP if you are getting multiple stale seedbeds.
I know nothing of you, your farm or system but until you have this under control the likelihood is you will remain uncompetitive when commodity prices are depressed. I am in a similar position hence my wheat area this year is just enough to satisfy the requirements of my "third" crop.

Did you beat the slugs in the end?

 

[Will7]

Did you beat the slugs in the end?

Yes, and no! Due to the slugs I applied no pre-em. A decision was then taken on blackgrass levels, whether it is at a rogueable level or not. If it was, it got a peri-em; if not it has been written off. Fortunately the worst bg bits were in and around the worst slug areas which suggests a soil type issue I think.
I wrote off 8ha out of 40ha so not my finest hour, but not too an expensive lesson to learn either.
The slugs though stopped me drilling anymore, which has been a god send seeing how the land has greened up having been lightly cultivated instead of drilled. Behind every cloud!!

 

[Flat 10]

Off at a tangent but having been brought up by a non metric grandfather can someone enlighten me exactly what 200kg/ha N is? Is it roughly x3 to get kg/ha A.N. (I know its 34.5%N but 33.333 is easier for calcs) so 600kg/ha AN product. Divide by 2.5 (2.471 to be correct) to give 240kg/acre. ie almost 5cwt/ac if you assume just under 50kg to a cwt? If so I don't think I have ever applied that much AN to a wheat crop. Normally more like 4.5cwt. Never thought I had starved a crop as have achieved 9-10t/ha with reasonable regularity in first wheat situations on what I would say is quite thin droughty land for wheat. So I should be upping rates by at least 10%? Or have I got all this wrong. Had been quite happy I was right............

 

[robbie]

If you times KgN/ha by 0.8 it'll give you the answer in units an acre, so 200kgN/ha x0.8=160 units an acre. Divide by product % eg 34.5 for AN or 46 for urea and you've got cwt/ac.

160/34.5=4.63cwt/ac of An

That's how I do it anyway.

 

[Flat 10]

If you times KgN/ha by 0.8 it'll give you the answer in units an acre, so 200kgN/ha x0.8=160 units an acre. Divide by product % eg 34.5 for AN or 46 for urea and you've got cwt/ac.

160/34.5=4.63cwt/ac of An

That's how I do it anyway.

Simpler. And you have me being less far out which is only a good thing.

 

[Gong Farmer]

If you look at break-even ratios at present (about 6:1 for AN and 5:1 for urea) you could justify cutting back a little, say by 20-30 kg. Any more than that and you'd be on a slippery slope downwards for yield. Also we don't know the true BER until we sell the grain.

The Yield Plateau work we did for HGCA showed for both OSR and wheat one of the reasons for static yields is we're not applying (or aren't allowed to apply) enough N

 

[yellow belly]

in the 80s were were on 4 to 5 bags an acre plus manure and grew 4 tonne of milling wheat at 13 % protein
this year on 220kg per ha and grew 4 tonne at 9.5 to 11 % protein with very little left over for the autumn
so now looking at 260 and targeting 5 t of wheat some the extra n will be in the soil for the next crop of rape so non will be wasted heavy land drains start running in November at the earliest by which time the rape has absorbed all the spare n in the soil

 

[Lincsman]

Nitrogen is the only input that directly increases yield, every other input reduces yield loss.

 

[Flat 10]

Nitrogen is the only input that directly increases yield, every other input reduces yield loss.

Interesting. Elaborate if you'd be so kind.

 

[Lincsman]

Interesting. Elaborate if you'd be so kind.

Extra nitrogen = a little bit more yield (up to a point)

Mildew spray reduces the yield reduction mildew would do if you didnt spray, it does not increase the yield if mildew wasn't there.

 

[Flat 10]

How does P and K etc fit in then?

 

[Lincsman]

How does P and K etc fit in then?

Doesn't make that much difference unless it was chronically short, they are a long term thing and some of my soils have not had K in 30 years, the soil keeps itself topped up.

P and K can be there in big amounts, it just isn't always available.

 

[franklin]

Some of the land we grow the best wheat on hasnt had P in years. Soil tests keep saying its low. Tissue tests never shown a deficiency.

 

[bracken basher]

B2n hwc