Dropping Nitrogen rates

[Neddy flanders]

Like how long is a piece of string, how much would dropping N rates from 210 to say 150kg have on yield ? First wheats after osr or beans and OSR

 

[Clive]

why ? N is best return per £ spent ? there would be other areas to cut before N if trying to reduce input / output surely ?

 

[Against_the_grain]

Would say dropping that much would cost 1.5-2t/ha in yield. Lots of variables obviously but as clive says good return per £ spent from N. Would be better of using cheaper fungicides if you wanted to save £30/quid odd/ha. Not that I would want to do that either tbh...fixed cost are where the BIG savings can come from. Cutting variable costs is only really small savings without detriment to yield.

 

[franklin]

Assuming you get a crop of wheat to the point of wanting to put N on it, I say slop it on.

And sulphur too.

 

[Neddy flanders]

Something's got to give with crop inputs at current prices. 3 major Wheat costs are
Blackgrass control £126/ha
T1 &T2 fungicides £75/ha
Nitrogen 200kgN £97/ha
Reductions in fixed costs and cults can be discussed til the cows come home.

 

[The_Swede]

Have you abandoned the reduced N experiment mentioned a few weeks back then @Clive ?

Drastically reduced input / quasi organic approach was very much the focus of Joel Williams yesterday... was certainly well presented and hugely interesting but little hard commercial / yield information offered.

 

[Clive]

Have you abandoned the reduced N experiment mentioned a few weeks back then @Clive ?

Drastically reduced input / quasi organic approach was very much the focus of Joel Williams yesterday... was certainly well presented and hugely interesting but little hard commercial / yield information offered.

no - that's a long term plan though done in conjunction with various techniques and rotation- no just a simple switching off of a input over night, but more thought out plan that to have any hope of achieving it over the next 5 years

i though this question is is more in relation to cutting N in a conventional cropping system and rotation - that wouldn't be a very smart move IMO

 

[Neddy flanders]

Have you abandoned the reduced N experiment mentioned a few weeks back then @Clive ?

Drastically reduced input / quasi organic approach was very much the focus of Joel Williams yesterday... was certainly well presented and hugely interesting but little hard commercial / yield information offered.

That's my point, a few weeks ago Clive went all hippie and planned to produce 8t/ha with little input.

 

[The_Swede]

Don't get me wrong Clive if it can be made / shown to work its a no brainier! Phased reduction with increased compost, muck and on-going scrutiny would (maybe actually will) be my approach. Also seeking some reliable data from breeders and suppliers of N provided by legumes in cover, catch and companion crops.

Still mulling it all over, some biological / total nutrient soil tests are my next step.

 

[Neddy flanders]

Dropping N would not have the yield decimating effect of dropping septoria or blackgrass control. It would have a more graduated effect on yield

 

[Clive]

That's my point, a few weeks ago Clive went all hippie and planned to produce 8t/ha with little input.

its not as simple as just cutting N rates and dropping fungicides if you want to maintain a decent yield - my plan to do that will take 5 years of rotation and biological improvements to achieve - it's started already, there are sheep grazing the field I'm doing it on as I type !

if you just try to do it without changing anything else your just going to see a reductio in GM I think

 

[Neddy flanders]

It's an interesting mindset change. I shall follow with interest. Good luck with the sheep.

 

[Iben]

Did one tramline in wheat this year, sown after winter oats and straw removed. 160kg N/ha, rest of field was 210kg N/ha.

Stood out like a sore thumb on yield map. Can't remember yield drop but certainly proved that I need to keep rates up.

 

[Brisel]

Something's got to give with crop inputs at current prices. 3 major Wheat costs are
Blackgrass control £126/ha
T1 &T2 fungicides £75/ha
Nitrogen 200kgN £97/ha
Reductions in fixed costs and cults can be discussed til the cows come home.

Rubbish.

Variable costs are fixed and fixed costs are variable.

 

[B'o'B]

Do what they are doing with the LearN project 60kg N more in one tramline 60kg N less in another and see which gives best return. Last year it would have paid me to put +60kg N on most fields (it was an exceptional year for us). The data for this year hasn't been analysed yet but looking at the yield maps my guess would be it will be a toss up between farm standard 210kg and the +60 rate and that was on fields that ran out of water during the hot weather in June. The -60kg tramlines stand out badly.
If you drop your yield from 9t/Ha to 8t/Ha cutting N
your blackgrass control goes from £13.9/t to £15.8/t and
your fungicide from £8.3/t to £9.4/t
N costs go from £10.8/t to £8.7/t
So your N costs come down by £2.1/t but your Chemical spend goes up by £2.8/t resulting in each tonne costing £0.70 more to grow before you take into account spreading all your other costs on a per tonne basis.

 

[More to life]

If you think about it Clives plan is to buy nitrogen cheaper not reduce it

 

[horizontal]

Re OP if you join NIAB TAG you will find a clear answer to the question in their variety interaction trial results.

I think there is scope to improve gross margin from where we are today but I'm not starting with a reduction in N.

I'm not sure that looking at cost per tonne in isolation is particularly helpful either in my quest for remaining profitable. I want to maximise £ net margin from my given acreage which is based on tonnes produced as well as cost per tonne.

 

[Brisel]

Do what they are doing with the LearN project 60kg N more in one tramline 60kg N less in another and see which gives best return. Last year it would have paid me to put +60kg N on most fields (it was an exceptional year for us). The data for this year hasn't been analysed yet but looking at the yield maps my guess would be it will be a toss up between farm standard 210kg and the +60 rate and that was on fields that ran out of water during the hot weather in June. The -60kg tramlines stand out badly.
If you drop your yield from 9t/Ha to 8t/Ha cutting N
your blackgrass control goes from £13.9/t to £15.8/t and
your fungicide from £8.3/t to £9.4/t
N costs go from £10.8/t to £8.7/t
So your N costs come down by £2.1/t but your Chemical spend goes up by £2.8/t resulting in each tonne costing £0.70 more to grow before you take into account spreading all your other costs on a per tonne basis.

Excellent analysis

Re OP if you join NIAB TAG you will find a clear answer to the question in their variety interaction trial results.

I think there is scope to improve gross margin from where we are today but I'm not starting with a reduction in N.

I'm not sure that looking at cost per tonne in isolation is particularly helpful either in my quest for remaining profitable. I want to maximise £ net margin from my given acreage which is based on tonnes produced as well as cost per tonne.

This too

Regarding my earlier comment about fixed costs being variable... Start with a blank sheet of paper, i.e. nothing, lay out how you would create a farm system to grow crops purely and simply. No "extras" no "well, that might come in handy" or "that makes that awful job so much more comfortable." I did this 12 months ago and arrived at the conclusion that equipment levels could be simpler. I spend £40k/year on tyres & wearing metal thanks to flint soils and £90k on diesel to rip up the compaction I was putting in. Next summer, a strip till drill arrives here with the long term aim of zero tillage once I have improved the soil structure to the point where it becomes self repairing.

I got to that conclusion via looking at controlled traffic - never mind the cost of changing implement widths & fitting RTK to all the gear, why not just reduce the number of passes & get nature to help avoid/fix the compaction? Why sell all cereal straw then buy in compost, sewage & FYM to replace the organic matter offtake, with lorries cutting ruts in and out of each field.

I'm not saying that no till is the way forward for everyone - that was just my example which may or may not be right, but stepping back and starting again you might do things differently. I hope that akes sense.

 

[Clive]

Excellent analysis



This too

Regarding my earlier comment about fixed costs being variable... Start with a blank sheet of paper, i.e. nothing, lay out how you would create a farm system to grow crops purely and simply. No "extras" no "well, that might come in handy" or "that makes that awful job so much more comfortable." I did this 12 months ago and arrived at the conclusion that equipment levels could be simpler. I spend £40k/year on tyres & wearing metal thanks to flint soils and £90k on diesel to rip up the compaction I was putting in. Next summer, a strip till drill arrives here with the long term aim of zero tillage once I have improved the soil structure to the point where it becomes self repairing.

I got to that conclusion via looking at controlled traffic - never mind the cost of changing implement widths & fitting RTK to all the gear, why not just reduce the number of passes & get nature to help avoid/fix the compaction? Why sell all cereal straw then buy in compost, sewage & FYM to replace the organic matter offtake, with lorries cutting ruts in and out of each field.

I'm not saying that no till is the way forward for everyone - that was just my example which may or may not be right, but stepping back and starting again you might do things differently. I hope that akes sense.

Can I like this post enough ! Seems you have had your lightbulb moment !

Shame to waste time on the strip till stage but baby steps I guess !

 

[TurfWoody]

Do what they are doing with the LearN project 60kg N more in one tramline 60kg N less in another and see which gives best return. Last year it would have paid me to put +60kg N on most fields (it was an exceptional year for us). The data for this year hasn't been analysed yet but looking at the yield maps my guess would be it will be a toss up between farm standard 210kg and the +60 rate and that was on fields that ran out of water during the hot weather in June. The -60kg tramlines stand out badly.
If you drop your yield from 9t/Ha to 8t/Ha cutting N
your blackgrass control goes from £13.9/t to £15.8/t and
your fungicide from £8.3/t to £9.4/t
N costs go from £10.8/t to £8.7/t
So your N costs come down by £2.1/t but your Chemical spend goes up by £2.8/t resulting in each tonne costing £0.70 more to grow before you take into account spreading all your other costs on a per tonne basis.

Our LearN trial over the last 2 harvests has shown using +60kg N over the farm standard of 220kg N/ha has an increase in yield which more than pays for the extra fertiliser used. Applying -60kg N there is a definite drop in yield from the standard 220 kg N/ha.
The trial on our farm has shown if anything we are not applying enough nitrogen.