Easy ram tups

[Joe S]

Yes he bought 3 I intend coming to some of the shows on Orkney in early August so I will buy you a "Thank You" drink then

i would think he will have more in the coming years sheep numbers are on the way up2000 lambing is the aim long time since the numbers were that high! not since granddad was there! Willing to bet you have a regular customer I'll see you in august then, i'll be at both shows and will probable have lots of questions Sadly I cant accept the drink

 

[jamesy]

i would think he will have more in the coming years sheep numbers are on the way up2000 lambing is the aim long time since the numbers were that high! not since granddad was there! Willing to bet you have a regular customer I'll see you in august then, i'll be at both shows and will probable have lots of questions Sadly I cant accept the drink

Of course, there are more than two shows in show week!

 

[Joe S]

Of course, there are more than two shows in show week!

True I'm very sorry[emoji6][emoji23]

 

[easyram1]

Not knocking what you're doing but, given your current numbers, would it not be worth using a UK Texel or two across some of your NZ Texels, in order to create linkage, and make your Signet ebv's have some sort of relevance? I understand semen is available FOC from some of the RamCompare rams, which would be well connected and with high accuracy figures, making them ideal 'reference rams'.

Interesting thought that we have considered. Most new clients come top us because they believe that we have a marked point of difference with UK genetics and we do not want to dilute our message. Our primary aim of recording is to improve our own sheep and so not being on the same comparison basis as UK Texels is not our priority. Clients who are interested in figs are only really interested in what are the best or better sheep within our own flock. I hope this makes sense

 

[easyram1]

Of course, there are more than two shows in show week!

How many? and where? and who organises them?

 

[neilo]

Interesting thought that we have considered. Most new clients come top us because they believe that we have a marked point of difference with UK genetics and we do not want to dilute our message. Our primary aim of recording is to improve our own sheep and so not being on the same comparison basis as UK Texels is not our priority. Clients who are interested in figs are only really interested in what are the best or better sheep within our own flock. I hope this makes sense

I get what you mean on the 'point of difference', but could you not rear a group through to scanning each year, then slaughter them, or even sell them as 'hybrids' or whatever. Without that genetic connection, I would suggest your Signet ebv's are of limited use, probably even less than a within flock analysis. If the NZ Texels really do perform on a par with (or better than) the UK bloodlines, then the additional data provided from analysing those genetics within your flock will show that in the ebv's.
Maybe your customers aren't really using the ebv's for selection, but for any that do, I would think having ebv's (potentially) reduced because of low accuracy and connectedness, can't help. The last one I had off you had an index in single figures on BASCO, on the Texel base. If I hadn't been willing to take a punt on your rearing/breeding philosophy, or had been looking at a UK Texel breeder's farm/sale, I wouldn't have even looked at him and would probably have disregarded the breeder for still producing sheep with indices that low.

Again, I'm not knocking your sheep, and I do consider it a possibility that your ebv's will be artificially low due to lack of connectedness & linkage within the BLUP analysis.

 

[jamesy]

How many? and where? and who organises them?

Well, now, seeing as you're competition I shouldn't say!

There are 6 shows in all.

 

[Jackson4]

I get what you mean on the 'point of difference', but could you not rear a group through to scanning each year, then slaughter them, or even sell them as 'hybrids' or whatever. Without that genetic connection, I would suggest your Signet ebv's are of limited use, probably even less than a within flock analysis. If the NZ Texels really do perform on a par with (or better than) the UK bloodlines, then the additional data provided from analysing those genetics within your flock will show that in the ebv's.
Maybe your customers aren't really using the ebv's for selection, but for any that do, I would think having ebv's (potentially) reduced because of low accuracy and connectedness, can't help. The last one I had off you had an index in single figures on BASCO, on the Texel base. If I hadn't been willing to take a punt on your rearing/breeding philosophy, or had been looking at a UK Texel breeder's farm/sale, I wouldn't have even looked at him and would probably have disregarded the breeder for still producing sheep with indices that low.

Again, I'm not knocking your sheep, and I do consider it a possibility that your ebv's will be artificially low due to lack of connectedness & linkage within the BLUP analysis.

I would think if his customers wanted a uk texel with high signet figures they would have already got one, and probably cheaper, most would have had uk suffolk or texel tups and know what they are getting. I would think a lot of these nz rams will be used as crosses for maternals to sell or close their flocks, in the hope they have a few degrees of difference in the areas which aren't really shown in signet. I would think it similar why those trying to do more on grass in dairy are using nz friesian. As recording works against new flocks no flock would ever get started if the buyers didnt buy the tups knowing the figures would come latter.

Recording is great at collecting data and has helped flocks with their muscle depths, loins, gigots, fat, growth rate etc but you still dont know if the tup you get has had many unrecorded weaknesses but has been medicated and fed to fit the system, in a race to the top (or bottom really) of whose the best on the list, in many ways, like in the show and sale side of things you have to ask others of their experience or try for yourself before you can be sure of the breeders philosophy.

For me, until there is a central recording facility were pregnant sheep are sent and lambs recorded, or a use of huge amounts of data through tracing progeny back from the abbatoir then i still see the most accurate use of figures is in each persons own flock as there are a lot of variables and a lot of unrecorded but very important traits (ask to see the med bills of some of the dairy guys using holstein of old) which are very important in the maternal side.

 

[neilo]

I would think if his customers wanted a uk texel with high signet figures they would have already got one, and probably cheaper, most would have had uk suffolk or texel tups and know what they are getting. I would think a lot of these nz rams will be used as crosses for maternals to sell or close their flocks, in the hope they have a few degrees of difference in the areas which aren't really shown in signet. I would think it similar why those trying to do more on grass in dairy are using nz friesian. As recording works against new flocks no flock would ever get started if the buyers didnt buy the tups knowing the figures would come latter.

Recording is great at collecting data and has helped flocks with their muscle depths, loins, gigots, fat, growth rate etc but you still dont know if the tup you get has had many unrecorded weaknesses but has been medicated and fed to fit the system, in a race to the top (or bottom really) of whose the best on the list, in many ways, like in the show and sale side of things you have to ask others of their experience or try for yourself before you can be sure of the breeders philosophy.

For me, until there is a central recording facility were pregnant sheep are sent and lambs recorded, or a use of huge amounts of data through tracing progeny back from the abbatoir then i still see the most accurate use of figures is in each persons own flock as there are a lot of variables and a lot of unrecorded but very important traits (ask to see the med bills of some of the dairy guys using holstein of old) which are very important in the maternal side.

I certainly wasn't suggesting whether NZ Texels where any better or worse than the UK versions, on functional traits or performance, just suggesting a way of getting meaningful Signet results to allow accurate comparisons.
Recording doesn't work against new flocks, but BLUP is (quite rightly) risk averse, so it doesn't give any new 'high fliers' the merit that they may, or may not, deserve until a reasonable amount of data is included in the analysis. Once 30 or so progeny have been recorded by a sire, there is plenty of data to make that comparison and I suspect Robyn would have more than that by any of his stock sires, given the flock size.
My point was that, to give a meaningful performance comparison to UK Texel genetics, then some common genetics need to be used in the same contemporary group, either by Robyn rearing some, or by a recorded UK Texel flock rearing a decent number (30+, as above) of NZ Texels alongside theirs.

Personally I certainly wouldn't be averse to the idea of using a mongrel ram that was half NZ Texel and half functional UK Texel, as long as it was reared and selected on the same low input basis and his ebvs stacked up.

 

[Clipping1964]

Neil, I understood it was Robbie with the low vet & med. Something that just wont be achivable in the UK.

I've never seen a drought around Ellesmere, with all that heavy ground and water
But youre right, as i tell my wife, I can only do my best with what I have got.
Appologies if i seem negative, but this is more of a Dragons Den style questioning as I'm genuinly interested in what your rams have to offer.

Where I struggle a bit is the constat refference to NZ. I understand thats its for marketing purposes. But you sell Texels and Suffolk rams. Why do you need to reference them as NZ, just an animal that has been selected on different traits. We dont see the charolias in NZ being sold as British.

I think you have done tremendous work in educating farmers in different ways of improving efficiency and you must be applauded for it

 

[easyram1]

I would think if his customers wanted a uk texel with high signet figures they would have already got one, and probably cheaper, most would have had uk suffolk or texel tups and know what they are getting. I would think a lot of these nz rams will be used as crosses for maternals to sell or close their flocks, in the hope they have a few degrees of difference in the areas which aren't really shown in signet. I would think it similar why those trying to do more on grass in dairy are using nz friesian. As recording works against new flocks no flock would ever get started if the buyers didnt buy the tups knowing the figures would come latter.

Recording is great at collecting data and has helped flocks with their muscle depths, loins, gigots, fat, growth rate etc but you still dont know if the tup you get has had many unrecorded weaknesses but has been medicated and fed to fit the system, in a race to the top (or bottom really) of whose the best on the list, in many ways, like in the show and sale side of things you have to ask others of their experience or try for yourself before you can be sure of the breeders philosophy.

.

You have really hit the nail smack on the head when discussing why people come to us initially. Our new clients who have previously been using terminals will overwhelmingly have been using Texels, as you would expect in view of their dominant market share. The majority have probably bought unrecorded rams in the past . The biggest reason for people trying us the first time is ram longevity and lambing ease ( most clients lamb outdoors ) followed closely by people wanting to retain EasyRam Suffolk or Texel X females. General functional traits like feet ( Texels) and dags ( Suffolks )are also high on peoples priority lists. So as you say Signet figs are not featuring very often except that a lot of people buying recorded rams who then come to us have been disappointed to find that "recorded " rams are not necessarily highly functional rams.

I get what you mean on the 'point of difference', but could you not rear a group through to scanning each year, then slaughter them, or even sell them as 'hybrids' or whatever. Without that genetic connection, I would suggest your Signet ebv's are of limited use, probably even less than a within flock analysis. If the NZ Texels really do perform on a par with (or better than) the UK bloodlines, then the additional data provided from analysing those genetics within your flock will show that in the ebv's.
Maybe your customers aren't really using the ebv's for selection, but for any that do, I would think having ebv's (potentially) reduced because of low accuracy and connectedness, can't help. The last one I had off you had an index in single figures on BASCO, on the Texel base. If I hadn't been willing to take a punt on your rearing/breeding philosophy, or had been looking at a UK Texel breeder's farm/sale, I wouldn't have even looked at him and would probably have disregarded the breeder for still producing sheep with indices that low.

Again, I'm not knocking your sheep, and I do consider it a possibility that your ebv's will be artificially low due to lack of connectedness & linkage within the BLUP analysis.

I certainly wasn't suggesting whether NZ Texels where any better or worse than the UK versions, on functional traits or performance, just suggesting a way of getting meaningful Signet results to allow accurate comparisons.
Recording doesn't work against new flocks, but BLUP is (quite rightly) risk averse, so it doesn't give any new 'high fliers' the merit that they may, or may not, deserve until a reasonable amount of data is included in the analysis. Once 30 or so progeny have been recorded by a sire, there is plenty of data to make that comparison and I suspect Robyn would have more than that by any of his stock sires, given the flock size.
My point was that, to give a meaningful performance comparison to UK Texel genetics, then some common genetics need to be used in the same contemporary group, either by Robyn rearing some, or by a recorded UK Texel flock rearing a decent number (30+, as above) of NZ Texels alongside theirs.

Personally I certainly wouldn't be averse to the idea of using a mongrel ram that was half NZ Texel and half functional UK Texel, as long as it was reared and selected on the same low input basis and his ebvs stacked up.

Interesting theory and one we have and do continue to consider. The key question to me is how many people ( commercial farmers ) are interested in buying the "Mongrels " suggested by Neil. If there is a market then we could easily breed some but then are we diluting our brand etc etc. I remember in the early days with the Suffolks that I thought we would sell the "Halves and Halves * ( 1/2 UK - 1/2 NZ ) that we had more easily due to more familiar shape etc etc . Truth was they were much harder to sell even at a discount as most clients decided if they were going down the Kiwi route the may as well go the whole way . In those days figs of noticeably inferior ( slower growing and less meat content ) "Halves and Halves" were way ahead of NZ sheep but only because of the UKs Suffolks background data. Today our EasySuffolks as I have already said have a flock AVERAGE that puts them in the top quarter of the UK SUFFOLK breed analysis with plenty of indivs in the top 5% or even 1%.. and no we definitely will not be selling rams to UK Texel breeders firstly because no one wants to buy one and secondly to avoid the mixed messages that we see from certain peoples claims about their so called NZ Suffolks which normally causes me to go on a rant

 

[easyram1]

Neil, I understood it was Robbie with the low vet & med. Something that just wont be achivable in the UK.

I've never seen a drought around Ellesmere, with all that heavy ground and water
But youre right, as i tell my wife, I can only do my best with what I have got.
Appologies if i seem negative, but this is more of a Dragons Den style questioning as I'm genuinly interested in what your rams have to offer.

Where I struggle a bit is the constat refference to NZ. I understand thats its for marketing purposes. But you sell Texels and Suffolk rams. Why do you need to reference them as NZ, just an animal that has been selected on different traits. We dont see the charolias in NZ being sold as British.

I think you have done tremendous work in educating farmers in different ways of improving efficiency and you must be applauded for it

As you obviously know nothing about our farm'soil types and to put the record straight our land is light loam ( none heavy) with plenty of sand and also peat hollows. We are within 3/4 mile of a massive sand and gravel quarry and the same band of sand and gravel runs under all the land we farm and runs southwards as far as Myddle.
Your final point is why the reference to NZ ? Because that is what they are. We have only been running EasyRams for 10 years so virtually all our sheep are within an absolute max of 3 generations from either live or embryo imports. I know from our own experience of Suffolks for the last 40 year that our EasySuffolks can not be compared in any way with UK ones. Now whether that is for better or worse I leave others to judge. As for the Texels I assume the same applies but I have zero experience of UK Texels so I am less dogmatic.
At the end of the day we breed rams to make a living. To attract new customers people need to know what we are selling and what our point of difference is. This is why we promote the EasyRam name and all that goes with it including the NZ provenance and breeding philosophy. After selling to 100+ NEW clients in each of the last 2 years and with our current level of repeat orders we are not going to change what we do other than try to breed better sheep that will hopefully make customers more money. As everyone selling Charolais in NZ are good friends of ours I don't think they need any help from me in their marketing.

 

[neilo]

Interesting theory and one we have and do continue to consider. The key question to me is how many people ( commercial farmers ) are interested in buying the "Mongrels " suggested by Neil. If there is a market then we could easily breed some but then are we diluting our brand etc etc. I remember in the early days with the Suffolks that I thought we would sell the "Halves and Halves * ( 1/2 UK - 1/2 NZ ) that we had more easily due to more familiar shape etc etc . Truth was they were much harder to sell even at a discount as most clients decided if they were going down the Kiwi route the may as well go the whole way . In those days figs of noticeably inferior ( slower growing and less meat content ) "Halves and Halves" were way ahead of NZ sheep but only because of the UKs Suffolks background data. Today our EasySuffolks as I have already said have a flock AVERAGE that puts them in the top quarter of the UK SUFFOLK breed analysis with plenty of indivs in the top 5% or even 1%.. and no we definitely will not be selling rams to UK Texel breeders firstly because no one wants to buy one and secondly to avoid the mixed messages that we see from certain peoples claims about their so called NZ Suffolks which normally causes me to go on a rant

I wasn't suggesting you should go into wholescale 'mongrel' breeding, just that there would be a potential outlet for a few that were produced as a by-product of the use of some UK genetics as reference rams. You could of course just kill them after scanning, and retain a few daughters to run commercially, but recorded to maintain the linkage. I wouldn't personally be interested in the genetics of an extreme UK Texel crossed in, but I wouldn't be afraid of one with structure and function closer to that of the maternal NZ sheep.
If those more accurate ebvs did indeed show that the NZ Texels are performing as well/better than their UK counterparts, as you claim of the NZ Suffolks above, then it can only be a win win for promotion and sales.

I'm sure any UK Texel breeders would be able to get hold of one of your rams if they wanted to. Once you have sold any number, the cat's out of the bag and you have no real control of where they end up. Frankly, I'm surprised that nobody seems to have done so yet, hanging on your marketing coat tails to sell into the large maternal Texel market, as some do with the Suffolks. I'm not sure whether you should be annoyed or flattered by them though.

 

[gatepost]

I wasn't suggesting you should go into wholescale 'mongrel' breeding, just that there would be a potential outlet for a few that were produced as a by-product of the use of some UK genetics as reference rams. You could of course just kill them after scanning, and retain a few daughters to run commercially, but recorded to maintain the linkage. I wouldn't personally be interested in the genetics of an extreme UK Texel crossed in, but I wouldn't be afraid of one with structure and function closer to that of the maternal NZ sheep.
If those more accurate ebvs did indeed show that the NZ Texels are performing as well/better than their UK counterparts, as you claim of the NZ Suffolks above, then it can only be a win win for promotion and sales.

I'm sure any UK Texel breeders would be able to get hold of one of your rams if they wanted to. Once you have sold any number, the cat's out of the bag and you have no real control of where they end up. Frankly, I'm surprised that nobody seems to have done so yet, hanging on your marketing coat tails to sell into the large maternal Texel market, as some do with the Suffolks. I'm not sure whether you should be annoyed or flattered by them though.

I have thought about it, but decided to press on with what we do, as that seems to work for us, quite a few selling Lleyn cross Texels which although not the same (before I incur the wroth of Gods) will give a similar out come, with hybrid vigour, and as we know from previous threads, people are very much in 2 camps when it comes to recording, as Sam Boon has said very difficult to record a cross bred and put a weighting in for the hybrid vigour, I personally think that the only way forward and to retain some integrity and faith in the figures will be to dismiss all, unless fully registered backed up with the DNA, figs for within flock crossbreds might be good marketing but wholly useless , I hasten to add Not talking about Easy rams.

 

[Clipping1964]

I wasn't suggesting you should go into wholescale 'mongrel' breeding, just that there would be a potential outlet for a few that were produced as a by-product of the use of some UK genetics as reference rams. You could of course just kill them after scanning, and retain a few daughters to run commercially, but recorded to maintain the linkage. I wouldn't personally be interested in the genetics of an extreme UK Texel crossed in, but I wouldn't be afraid of one with structure and function closer to that of the maternal NZ sheep.
If those more accurate ebvs did indeed show that the NZ Texels are performing as well/better than their UK counterparts, as you claim of the NZ Suffolks above, then it can only be a win win for promotion and sales.

I'm sure any UK Texel breeders would be able to get hold of one of your rams if they wanted to. Once you have sold any number, the cat's out of the bag and you have no real control of where they end up. Frankly, I'm surprised that nobody seems to have done so yet, hanging on your marketing coat tails to sell into the large maternal Texel market, as some do with the Suffolks. I'm not sure whether you should be annoyed or flattered by them though.

Good sheep sell themselves, your breeding is a prime example of this if I think I'm right in who you are. All credit to you.

I'm sure many a texel breeder would have contemplated this, and it would be very easy from them to get hold of a ram if they wished so. But for the non extreme breeder, who just breeds a functional sheep, there are a few in existence. What does the texel from NZ offer. I dont see it competing in the terminal stakes. And its very hard to judge their maternal ability.

 

[neilo]

Good sheep sell themselves, your breeding is a prime example of this if I think I'm right in who you are. All credit to you.

I'm sure many a texel breeder would have contemplated this, and it would be very easy from them to get hold of a ram if they wished so. But for the non extreme breeder, who just breeds a functional sheep, there are a few in existence. What does the texel from NZ offer. I dont see it competing in the terminal stakes. And its very hard to judge their maternal ability.

Thank you.

Personally I see NZ genetics as a short cut in maternal lines. Through necessity, the Kiwis have been selecting for functional traits such as lambing ease, lack of dagginess and good feet, for far longer than most in the UK. We could achieve just the same with our own breeds, but why not leap frog a few steps if the option's there?
I don't see any NZ genetics as competition in terminal stakes, to any of the best of UK terminal breeds, at least while we are being rewarded for confirmation via the EUROP grid anyway. In maternal genetics however, I can certainly see a benefit from jumping forward by a few generations of ruthless selection.

 

[easyram1]

Good sheep sell themselves, your breeding is a prime example of this if I think I'm right in who you are. All credit to you.

I'm sure many a texel breeder would have contemplated this, and it would be very easy from them to get hold of a ram if they wished so. But for the non extreme breeder, who just breeds a functional sheep, there are a few in existence. What does the texel from NZ offer. I dont see it competing in the terminal stakes. And its very hard to judge their maternal ability.

Lets get real. Even if Texel breeders get hold of our rams unless we register those rams with the Texel Society their offspring will not be able to be registered and so wont be able to be sold in club sales or even at Builth so I guess this rules out the majority of serious Texel breeders.
You then ask me what the NZ Texel offers. My answer is simple MORE PROFIT for the commercial farmer for all the reasons that have been so exhaustively discussed throughout this thread. I really don't wish to be rude or to comment unfavourably on other breeds or other breeders because that is not fair and I have only ever had experience of pedigree UK Suffolks and a few BFLs. I am only really interested in the long term success of EasyRams as my family's future depends on our having a long term sustainable ram breeding business. Our client feedback is that our EasyTexels compare very very favourably from a Terminal viewpoint with their UK cousins ( but I have no idea if our average client has bought "good" or " bad" rams in the past )and in the 4 years that their daughters have been on the ground people are equally convinced of their maternal abilities. If any of the breeds we have were meeting with an unfavourable feedback from clients or provided us with unnecessary grief from a management viewpoint I can assure you they would have been removed from here a long time ago !

 

[easyram1]

I found these 2 reports on the Inzac Flock in Athenry in the farmers journal

must be pointed out that these are purebred sheep and not commercial flocks

Below is a link to the latest press report out of Athenry about their research project to compare the performance of pure NZ Suffolk and Texel Genetics with Irish Elite and Low index Suffolk and Texel flocks. This follows an open meeting for breeders yesterday.
Obviously in spite of it being early days we are delighted that the results continue to show significant superiority of NZ genetics in a number of traits.
We are delighted that we have a significant number of lambs on the ground this year ( born 3 to 4 weeks ago) that have been sired by 4 of the top NZ rams used by Teagasc at Athenry this year.
even though this trial is taking place using Irish genetics the closeness of Irish and UK Suffolk and Texel genetics is such as to mean these results have true validity in the UK as well as in Ireland.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-zealand-genetics-delivering-the-goods-in-athenry/

 

[sheep breeder]

Sure that is only first year results out of a 4 year project and this is being done in athenry !!!!!!!!

 

[easyram1]

Sure that is only first year results out of a 4 year project and this is being done in athenry !!!!!!!!

PLUS tupping scanning and lambing out of Year2 PLUS first time I have seen reported the % of lambs finished off grass for year1 which gives 96% NZ sired lambs away off grass alone and hi and lo Irish with 82% and 69% finished off grass respectively . and the following quote McGovern added that the last of the ‘low’ lambs were sold off-farm in November and required concentrates to finish, while the last of the New Zealand lambs were drafted in September after 96% of these animals had received a grass-only diet.