Eating out

[delilah]

In your perfect idyllic world would these independent cafes have the pricing structure, speed of service & opening hours as Mcdonalds?

Yeah you're really clutching at straws now.
You, and the vast majority of respondents to the OP, have made it clear that you see veganism as a bigger threat to your business and your industry than corporate control of the food chain. I disagree with you. But hey, time will tell.

 

[Wesley]

Yeah you're really clutching at straws now.
You, and the vast majority of respondents to the OP, have made it clear that you see veganism as a bigger threat to your business and your industry than corporate control of the food chain. I disagree with you. But hey, time will tell.

I never mentioned vegan. Its pretty simple, but if they don’t have the throughput of McDonalds etc then there will be an over supply of produce. Prices go down. There’s always someone who wants to be bigger & “better” than the rest. If everyone cut back it would be fine, but in reality that will never happen. There will always be someone looking to capitalise. Until you can control peoples greed for more you will always have the same problem.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Try it this way:
It has been said that if we are in doubt about what to do, we should ask ourselves the question "what would happen if everyone did this ?".
If everyone went into McDonalds, the only eatery in that high street and every other high street would be McDonalds, and the hold over abattoir capacity by the cartel would be even stronger than it is today.
If everyone went into the independent vegan cafe, within a month there would be a dozen or more independent cafe's on that and every other high street, some vegan, the vast majority not, and there would be a reverse in the seemingly terminal decline in the number of local and regional abattoir operators. The food chain would not, as you suggest, be run by vegans.

If you really believe that then you are even dafter than I thought...

If everyone went into the "independent vegan cafe" then the chains would realign their offerings to pull the customers back. Aside from advertising budget, convenience and economy of scale they would be able to provide a level of consistency in their offering that will not be possible between independents.

A customer going into Maccies pretty much knows what they are going to be getting - going into an independent is a lottery, the same applies with sandwiches. Go into a Subway and you get a sandwich assembled in front of you to your specific choices, go into a local sandwich shop and you don't know if they'll have what you want or how long that tuna mayo pot has been sat open in the sun in a display fridge that's rattling and whirling with a dodgy temperature display.

As an example, we have two local cafes in nearby towns - both owned and run by the same people with exactly the same menus, yet the food in one is generally better than the other, but not always. Depending on which one I go into and who is on duty I have to adjust my choice of what to have.

I've been on holiday in Cornwall for just over a week and have visited both "independent" and chain businesses - the best independents are superior to the chains, but current performance is that half the independents are most unlikely to receive further custom from us, whereas only one chain outlet has been below acceptable standards. I don't particularly enjoy paying out over £20 for three coffees & sandwiches that were not exactly pleasant!

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

Yeah you're really clutching at straws now.
You, and the vast majority of respondents to the OP, have made it clear that you see veganism as a bigger threat to your business and your industry than corporate control of the food chain. I disagree with you. But hey, time will tell.

I've got a question for you Delilah. Who do you think the multinationals producing fake meat and pushing various fungus derivatives would prefer you to eat at. McDonald's or a vegan cafe?

 

[wrenbird]

I am more than a bit cheesed of at being classed as a muppet because, apparently, the structure of the food chain in this country and the power of multinational global conglomerates is all down to how I have chosen to farm and eat for many years.
The truth is that changes to the food chain are consumer driven, not producer driven. Forty odd years ago I produced early, January born lambs for the Easter trade. I would take the finished lambs into Hereford market and there would be at least five or six small independent butchers competing to buy them.
Unfortunately the days of the independent high street butcher were coming to an end, these men were all elderly then, none of their shops are trading now, because the buying habits of the general public were rapidly changing, they were choosing the supermarket over the independent shop.
I had to change what I produced and who I sold to because my market disappeared, this change was consumer led, not because of anything I did.
I did do lamb boxes for the freezer for while, but less and less people wanted them because they weren’t really cooking from scratch anymore, and the small abattoir I used closed because of increased costs and regulation.
If you asked the average person which of the two choices they would make, cafe or McDonalds, what do you think the reply would be? It would probably be that they would stay at home on the sofa in front of the tele with deliveroo/just eat etc on speed dial and have the McDonalds delivered, I just hope that their choice is not the fault of a muppet like me. (I would personally like to identify as Fozzie Bear, eternal optimist in a battered hat).

 

[melted welly]

Try it this way:
It has been said that if we are in doubt about what to do, we should ask ourselves the question "what would happen if everyone did this ?".
If everyone went into McDonalds, the only eatery in that high street and every other high street would be McDonalds, and the hold over abattoir capacity by the cartel would be even stronger than it is today.
If everyone went into the independent vegan cafe, within a month there would be a dozen or more independent cafe's on that and every other high street, some vegan, the vast majority not, and there would be a reverse in the seemingly terminal decline in the number of local and regional abattoir operators. The food chain would not, as you suggest, be run by vegans.

Well it appears to have worked the opposite way. Over the past 40yr general public have chosen McDonald’s and supermarkets to the detriment of the independent shops, cafes and the local supply chains.

Why would it be different if everyone had chosen a vegan version? We’d just have a vegan version of what we’ve got now.

 

[delilah]

I think folks are missing the point of the OP. As someone cleverer than me has explained, it was a social experiment. The objective of the experiment was to find out what farmers see as the bigger issue; veganism or corporate control of the food chain. That cleverer person has said that it was a valid exercise. The result of the exercise is crystal clear. Yes ? Because if so, i'm not sure what the point is in debating how to address the issue of corporate control. Your pressing issue is how to combat veganism. Yes ?

 

[melted welly]

I think folks are missing the point of the OP. As someone cleverer than me has explained, it was a social experiment. The objective of the experiment was to find out what farmers see as the bigger issue; veganism or corporate control of the food chain. That cleverer person has said that it was a valid exercise. The result of the exercise is crystal clear. Yes ? Because if so, i'm not sure what the point is in debating how to address the issue of corporate control. Your pressing issue is how to combat veganism. Yes ?

You’re the person who’s come up with a wealth of points and resources on combatting the misinformation surrounding agriculture and it’s environmental/animal welfare impact.

Veganism and that misinformation are inextricably linked, that’s why you got the answer you did on a farmer forum.

 

[wrenbird]

I think that many on here would see veganism as almost a product of corporate control, in that it is a fashionable bandwagon to hitch a ride on that the multinationals see as a money spinner, cheap basic ingredients in, expensive “planet-friendly, save the world” ultra-processed stuff out.
I don’t get the point of we have to see one or the other as an exclusive threat, we, as in all farmers, but particularly livestock farmers, should just keep telling the truth about what we do and why we do it to counteract the crap that flung in our direction, difficult though it is most of the time.
As to the original question, which would I eat in, the answer is neither.

 

[TheTallGuy]

I think folks are missing the point of the OP. As someone cleverer than me has explained, it was a social experiment. The objective of the experiment was to find out what farmers see as the bigger issue; veganism or corporate control of the food chain. That cleverer person has said that it was a valid exercise. The result of the exercise is crystal clear. Yes ? Because if so, i'm not sure what the point is in debating how to address the issue of corporate control. Your pressing issue is how to combat veganism. Yes ?

The framing of the original question was far to vague for it to be a valid experiment and also neglects that the drive for veganism is also corporately driven.

 

[delilah]

Veganism and that misinformation are inextricably linked,

Whilst AR would be absolutely delighted if that was true, it isn't. You really think that vegan campaigners are responsible for the long list of woes constantly trotted out on here ? So, now that their flame is waning, everyone on here can look forward to a bright future for their business ? Nah.

 

[delilah]

The framing of the original question was far to vague for it to be a valid experiment and also neglects that the drive for veganism is also corporately driven.

Nope. An academic has told us it was a good exercise. The McMuppets just dived in without thinking it through, that is all.

edit: apologies, that's not fair, for all I know everyone did think it through, and gave their considered answer. It's just that I disagree with them.

 

[Highland Mule]

Nope. An academic has told us it was a good exercise. The McMuppets just dived in without thinking it through, that is all.

Which academic and where? This one thinks it’s a crock.

 

[delilah]

Which academic and where? This one thinks it’s a crock.

You need to go back a few pages. You seem to enjoy that .

 

[Highland Mule]

You need to go back a few pages. You seem to enjoy that .

I’ve read them all. Nowhere have I seen that. Your turn to read it or at least give us a name.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

You need to go back a few pages. You seem to enjoy that .

You need to as well, because you haven't answered my question yet (Further up this page)

 

[TheTallGuy]

Nope. An academic has told us it was a good exercise. The McMuppets just dived in without thinking it through, that is all.

edit: apologies, that's not fair, for all I know everyone did think it through, and gave their considered answer. It's just that I disagree with them.

Academics tell us that planting trees and releasing beavers will save the world.... so because an academic has said it then it must be true....

 

[Muddyroads]

Nope. An academic has told us it was a good exercise. The McMuppets just dived in without thinking it through, that is all.

edit: apologies, that's not fair, for all I know everyone did think it through, and gave their considered answer. It's just that I disagree with them.

An “academic” says something which your in agreement with and it’s therefore true.
Farmers with their boots on the ground and heads in reality don’t necessarily agree with you, so are called muppets.
Care to reflect?

 

[melted welly]

Whilst AR would be absolutely delighted if that was true, it isn't. You really think that vegan campaigners are responsible for the long list of woes constantly trotted out on here ? So, now that their flame is waning, everyone on here can look forward to a bright future for their business ? Nah.

No I don’t think veganism is the root cause of our problems.

However, it is a very prominent spreader of untruths, bad “science” and is at the heart of some pretty nasty PR set ups all to ultimately attack the livestock farmer.

That is why you got the answer you did.

 

[SteveHants]

I've got a question for you Delilah. Who do you think the multinationals producing fake meat and pushing various fungus derivatives would prefer you to eat at. McDonald's or a vegan cafe?

The answer to that is probably McDonald's isn't it?

Given that the companies who are developing the fake meat are companies like Cargills, McDonald's could potentially shift way more units and stock all their meat and fake meat product lines.