Electric cars

[unlacedgecko]

The idea that you are magically going to take carbon from the atmosphere on an industrial scale akin to the size of the fossil fuel industry today is a great one but there are 3 technical hurdles to jump before we get anywhere near it.

I am wholly in favour of trains and the national rail network should be rapidly expanded in my view. Anything to get trucks and cars off the road. Power the trains with overhead wires or hydrogen.

Due to an EU directive the whole of the UK Rahul network is being electrified.

 

[robcollins]

The idea that you can conjure enough cobalt out of the earths crust to get anywhere near converting the global vehicle fleet to battery power is quite ridiculous and as yet there is no magic battery that is going to make cobalt obsolete.

Ollie never mentioned batteries. (I know he mentioned them earlier) He mentioned trains and trucks operated via pantograph systems. He also mentioned trucks using hydrogen.

Neither is illogical.

They can be problematic and aren’t universal solutions to all the obstacles we must overcome.

I’m aware there’s no such thing as a free lunch. However if the technology is improving there is no reason to discourage it.

 

[ollie989898]

The idea that you can conjure enough cobalt out of the earths crust to get anywhere near converting the global vehicle fleet to battery power is quite ridiculous and as yet there is no magic battery that is going to make cobalt obsolete.

I bet there is enough cobalt.

 

[Scribus]

Ollie never mentioned batteries. (I know he mentioned them earlier) He mentioned trains and trucks operated via pantograph systems. He also mentioned trucks using hydrogen.

Neither is illogical.

They can be problematic and aren’t universal solutions to all the obstacles we must overcome.

I’m aware there’s no such thing as a free lunch. However if the technology is improving there is no reason to discourage it.

Given his fulsome support for battery cars (he even mentions he intends buying one) my response is quite appropriate.

Technology is not just about batteries, the technology of internal combustion engines has improved them considerably and is still doing so, yet there are vested interests out there who are doing their level best to discourage it.

 

[ollie989898]

Due to an EU directive the whole of the UK Rahul network is being electrified.

The cost will be immense.

 

[unlacedgecko]

The cost will be immense.

Yes.

 

[ollie989898]

Yes.

Can it even be done given the bridges and tunnels that will have to be altered to give clearance?

 

[unlacedgecko]

Can it even be done given the bridges and tunnels that will have to be altered to give clearance?

Yes, at great expense.

My knowledge is a few of years out of date. I haven’t worked on the tracks since 2016.

 

[Scribus]

I bet there is enough cobalt.

My maths goes like this, please feel free to correct me

In 2017 around 1m EVs were sold

In the same year 50,000 tonnes of cobalt were used in EV's

Therefore, on average, each EV contained 20kg of cobalt or 1 tonne of cobalt is sufficient for 50 EV's

There are around 7,000,000 tonnes of global cobalt reserves.

7m multiplied by 50 = 350m

The global vehicle fleet is around 1 billion.

Do you see the problem?

There is another summary here which highlights the issue from a slightly different perspective - http://www.mining.com/much-copper-nickel-cobalt-electric-vehicle-world-needs/


Refs

https://www.statista.com/statistics/264930/global-cobalt-reserves/

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/17368...sales-surpassed-1-million-in-2017-report-says

 

[Bloders]

Due to an EU directive the whole of the UK Rahul network is being electrified.

Are you sure?
Yes some parts are, but not the entire network

 

[renewablejohn]

Are you sure?
Yes some parts are, but not the entire network

Only certain routes are designated as being capable of haulage and its these routes which are being upgraded as haulage corridors.

 

[Brisel]

I bet there is enough cobalt.

Not quite, though as the cost of it rises, alternatives will be found & commercially viable. We've been running out of crude oil for the last 50 years yet as the price rises it makes more marginal sites like the Gulf of Mexico & Canadian tar sands worth exploiting. Thanks to OPEC Maggie was able to make North Sea oil worth exploiting.

If I were a multinational oil company I'd quietly be doing the R&D on new energy transfer sources ready for the day crude oil becomes eye wateringly expensive and much more scarce

 

[renewablejohn]

I bet there is enough cobalt.

Theres more than enough. What you have to remember in the world of Scribus all batteries now and forever more will be using todays Lithium battery technology. He has been told repeatedly this is not the case but the truth does not fit his EV bashing agenda so best advice as others have told me is just put him on the ignore button.

 

[Scribus]

Theres more than enough. What you have to remember in the world of Scribus all batteries now and forever more will be using todays Lithium battery technology. He has been told repeatedly this is not the case but the truth does not fit his EV bashing agenda so best advice as others have told me is just put him on the ignore button.

And just where are these magic alternatives? It's all pie in the sky. You've mentioned sodium in the past, a highly reactive metal that works best in liquid form, ie, you are expecting motorists to drive round on boxes of an unstable molten metal, good luck with that. Yes, you can use sodium salts (other than chloride) but they don't work as well -

But because sodium has a lower charge capacity than lithium, sodium batteries are heavier and require more materials to manufacture, which adds far more to the overall cost than is saved by replacing lithium with sodium. Also, Snydacker thinks sodium batteries will be inferior in performance, and ultimately can’t compete with a lithium-based technology that has been perfected over the last few decades.

https://qa.spectrum.ieee.org/energy...-before-sodium-batteries-are-worth-their-salt

There are ways in which the amount of cobalt in a li-ion battery can be reduced, the balance of nickel and cobalt can be adjusted, but cobalt is still essential for the stability of the battery.

The calculation I showed above assumes that all cobalt is used in EV's, but besides batteries cobalt has many other uses so it will not all be available for vehicles.

What is interesting though is that the price of cobalt has fallen recently due to "thin demand". Yet we are being told that EV's can't be made fast enough!

https://www.metalbulletin.com/Artic...e-price-continues-to-fall-on-thin-demand.html

 

[Scribus]

Not quite, though as the cost of it rises, alternatives will be found & commercially viable. We've been running out of crude oil for the last 50 years yet as the price rises it makes more marginal sites like the Gulf of Mexico & Canadian tar sands worth exploiting. Thanks to OPEC Maggie was able to make North Sea oil worth exploiting.

If I were a multinational oil company I'd quietly be doing the R&D on new energy transfer sources ready for the day crude oil becomes eye wateringly expensive and much more scarce

There is much talk of alternatives but few, if any, materialise.

One of the problems is that we are so used to new products and capabilities arriving daily in the digital world that we start to think that all progress proceeds at the same breakneck speed, but it doesn't. With material science you are up against what is physically possible rather than what might be overcome by more computing power and complex software. It's a different ball game altogether and you can't alter nature.

 

[Water Wheel]

is anyone buying an electric car/suv?
Whats the best one?
Is it right u get an interest free loan?

Not read any of thread , friend has a Hyundai Kona 64 all electric since Jan. Just driven 210 miles with charge for another 80 miles left ( Careful driving on good roads) . Incredible acceleration , if you need it.

 

[Scribus]

Not read any of thread , friend has a Hyundai Kona 64 all electric since Jan. Just driven 210 miles with charge for another 80 miles left ( Careful driving on good roads) . Incredible acceleration , if you need it.

So an estimated range of 290 miles in ideal driving conditions and a light foot. Wonderful, now try that in mid winter when the car is several years old and you need to get somewhere quickly in the dark. How long did it take to recharge BTW?

 

[Water Wheel]

So an estimated range of 290 miles in ideal driving conditions and a light foot. Wonderful, now try that in mid winter when the car is several years old and you need to get somewhere quickly in the dark. How long did it take to recharge BTW?

Done regular 200 ml round trips , since Jan including cold wet dark driving, 6 hrs to charge at his home , 25 hrs on a 13 amp plug,
its the last 10% of charge that takes the time. Only time will tell how quick the batteries degrade. Helps a lot if you have 'free' renewable electric available.
Plenty of charge points around and getting more.
https://www.zap-map.com/live/

Agreed not the convenience or flexibility of Petrol / Diesel, certainly helps if you are a 2 car household with an alternative available, but depends on your view of sustainability , cost and Global warming.

 

[Scribus]

Done regular 200 ml round trips , since Jan including cold wet dark driving, 6 hrs to charge at his home , 25 hrs on a 13 amp plug,
its the last 10% of charge that takes the time. Only time will tell how quick the batteries degrade. Helps a lot if you have 'free' renewable electric available.
Plenty of charge points around and getting more.
https://www.zap-map.com/live/

Agreed not the convenience or flexibility of Petrol / Diesel, certainly helps if you are a 2 car household with an alternative available, but depends on your view of sustainability , cost and Global warming.

My view is that none are helped by EV's whatsoever.

 

[Brisel]

There is much talk of alternatives but few, if any, materialise.

One of the problems is that we are so used to new products and capabilities arriving daily in the digital world that we start to think that all progress proceeds at the same breakneck speed, but it doesn't. With material science you are up against what is physically possible rather than what might be overcome by more computing power and complex software. It's a different ball game altogether and you can't alter nature.

They do exist, but can't compete with current mass market technology. Necessity is the mother of all invention.