Farmer Roy's Random Thoughts - I never said it was easy.

[Kiwi Pete]

I haven't ventured in for a look either but surely the larger dairies over there would have them for individual ration feeding

Probably. But they are keeping shtum for obvious reasons- it is hard to argue with the pleiosaurs - the 3 stooges and all the trolls are there for a good old abuse session, mainly based on fake news and misinformation.
But, @Blaithin neatly summed it up, it really is all down to what you make of it as far as a management tool goes. I think they just like having something to p1ss and moan about to be honest. Fair do's

 

[CornishTone]

At heart, EID's are for animal traceability. So if at slaughter or death that animal is found to have an issue - BSE, TB, etc. - it can be traced back to where it was infected and what it exposed along it's way. So really, in that scenario they don't need to be read at all.

But if a farmer wants to fully utilize their ability to link data and records electronically, then a reader is the way to go.

At the feedlot we could run through easily 700-800 head or more a day during processing. Between 7 am and 5 pm. You'd be very hard pressed doing that while manually writing everything down.

I understand the traceability side of the argument, but that’s happening already with the paper system. Like it or loath it, it’s the envy of bureaucrats the world over!

It seems the real advantage in the EID system from the farmers point of view is the ability to track the animals performance between birth and sale and adjust its management accordingly to get the best out of each beast, and of course increase efficiency of recording in larger operations. In order to do this and make the most of the technology though you need the reader, scales, draughting gear and software in the office etc etc, which is expensive, especially for the smaller producers who may not see a return on the investment.

So if the only selling point the British government can come up with is to make their life easier, I can kinda see why farmers would be reluctant. No one does anything simply to make life easier for the desk jockeys!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

But it doesn't really at present, or at least that's the argument they are giving.. once the animal gets slaughtered then it becomes harder to track with manual means
Put RFID in and animal ID can simply be duplicated 1, 2, 4 times as it is quartered down and easily done
Same with the management described above, easily as opposed to paper wars to achieve the same.
The popular argument seems to be, stick with the status quo to suit the small guys and their lack of desire to improve, rather than JFDI and "this is whats happening" which is what happened here.
I dare say it will happen there too, after reading the text at the beginning of the thread.
This is proven tech and in use elsewhere for good reason.

 

[CornishTone]

But it doesn't really at present, or at least that's the argument they are giving.. once the animal gets slaughtered then it becomes harder to track with manual means
Put RFID in and animal ID can simply be duplicated 1, 2, 4 times as it is quartered down and easily done
Same with the management described above, easily as opposed to paper wars to achieve the same.
The popular argument seems to be, stick with the status quo to suit the small guys and their lack of desire to improve, rather than JFDI and "this is whats happening" which is what happened here.
I dare say it will happen there too, after reading the text at the beginning of the thread.
This is proven tech and in use elsewhere for good reason.

I’m not disagreeing but they seem to be saying, in this case, that the advantage is to the processor and government rather than the producer. Why bow down and do as your told when there’s no advantage to you in doing so? That would be like simply accepting the removal of the edit button without handbags at dawn?[emoji6]

 

[Blaithin]

Is the government trying to tell them they need to use readers and electronic data?

Honestly here, besides putting the sticker with the super duper long rfid number on my records book of the animal, I don’t touch it. I have less than 10 calves a year, I can tell them apart and they don’t even get regular ear tags, just names. The only reason I rfid tag them is because it’s compulsory so if I don’t pay the 4 bucks and do it myself the auction will charge me 7 bucks and do it for me.

The tags I buy are registered to me so that animal will always link back to me. My records of the animal will say where it’s sold on too. No reader and no electronic data involved.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That is a fair point, however there is much more to growing beef than simply producing the animal and selling it - every link in the supply chain benefits if value is added to the product - especially if it comes via something as cheap and unobtrusive as a different tag in the ear.
The fact that it isn't done now is little reason not to do so in future even though traceable food is a proper red herring it does allow for massive improvements if reading can be computerised and automated.
When you look at automotive recalls, they can tell you which vehicles may have faulty parts due to traceability
Milk powder issues, they can tell which pallets are to be withdrawn and track where it all went, scan the barcodes and say yes or no.
Anything that reduces the risk of the wrong pallet, animal or Hilux being part of a recall is an advantage to every link in the chain, whether the producer sees it or not is their own choice - I think the more you disconnect and dismantle the scenario the less visible the benefit (refer holistic context spiel)

 

[CornishTone]

Just playing devils advocate and trying to understand their objection, whilst not reducing this thread to the inevitable slanging match! I can see the advantages of the system from my own, uneducated perspective, but it’s always interesting to see it from the other side.

 

[cows sh#t me to tears]

Well here's one for you @CornishTone . You may be too young yet , but may have noticed it in your old man.....have you ever noticed how as we men age we become more dyslexic the amount of times the old man came in and would tell mum a cow that he said was bulling and she would tell him it can't be it's been sold for 3 years Mum's dad was no better and I now find myself looking more than once now. Human error is frequent and no excuse. The computer gets it right every tme....no cows going before the with hold if they were treated. No cows accidentally milked into vat if treated and the blue paint is obscured by sh!t....it just works.....why argue about it (not you, those on the said thread)

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Just playing devils advocate and trying to understand their objection, whilst not reducing this thread to the inevitable slanging match! I can see the advantages of the system from my own, uneducated perspective, but it’s always interesting to see it from the other side.

I thought as much
The thing is, there is no difference between writing your rego number on a piece of cardboard and putting it in the window to a plate - so long as a human is doing the reading of it.
Put a computer in their place and it is a different story entirely, computer needs better than that
Really couldn't think of much worse than having a passport for all my cattle, much easier to check they have a tag and put them on a truck, let some other fecker do my job when it gets off at the other end

Then there is numeric illiteracy as @cows sh#t me to tears has described, human error, and the fact a house fire will destroy paper but it won't burn the tags out of all your cattle
plus time saving should you want to individually or group manage/feed said stock

All made possible via a tag costing little more than a normal tag is.

It strikes me as odd that "the govt won't sort out Tb" yet in this instance some farmers are against a tool that makes tracing it back an easier task by far and reduces the effort at routine testing.

That's about all I have, I remember the days of milk testing where we wrote numbers on flasks with a pencil and there were heaps of f**kups
Now it is computerised with a scanner, read the number off the protrack screen, tap it in, scan the flask, job done....

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Point of origin of a machine is crucial to making a buying decision, apparently - does knowing where it came from actually make a difference to anything that happens after the transaction?
If something goes wrong, then it does.

 

[Farmer Roy]

naïve
backwards
amateurish
dinosaur
childlike
exceptionalist

 

[Blaithin]

Canada is considered TB free.

Last year there was a case of TB discovered in a cow at slaughter. Her RFID tag traced her back, unfortunately to a herd that was part of a community pasture. All exposed animals were triaged, tested and if necessary, culled. I believe the tags encompassed 20 - 30, 000 head but would have to double check. Outbreak contained, TB free status still applied.

Same with BSE. Had the disaster BSE bullcaca in 2003 where the world shut their doors to our beef. It was the catalyst to implementing mandatory RFID tags. Fast forward to 2015 when the most recent case of BSE popped up and what happened? Nothing. They easily and quickly traced the animal back to the source and followed the trail to all other potentially infected cattle. Quick, efficient, gives confidence to export markets.

I’m unsure how exactly the UK cattle passports work but applying how a persons passport works to cows moving pastures... it does not seem like an efficient method.

The one pitfall of RFIDs that I find, is they fall out. Like any ear tag a percentage get lost. If your records are good then you just put in a new one and link it to the old one but it can still be a pain. One day I would like to see microchips advance in technology and use. A microchip in the ear, similar to an implant, would eliminate most cases of tag loss yet should still be able to hold the required ID data.

 

[CornishTone]

Couldn’t agree more, trust the technology! Machines fail occasionally but human error is likely to be higher.

It’s all about perceived and immediate gratification though isn’t it... what’s in it for me? If I don’t see an immediate advantage to me personally, why do it? None so blind as those that won’t see!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I think a little bit of that went on here tbh, with the mycoplasma bovis outbreak.
While it appears to highlight the weakness of the NAIT system and our ministry (MPI) most of the real problem with tracing it back was due to either farmers not completing the records (noncompliance) or loopholes in the recording regs meaning calves could slip through without their details being recorded in the system - thus making it damnably hard to identify exactly where these exposed animals went, once the source was identified.
The compounding factor being that the source of it is reportedly a large scale farming operation with several farms, so the requirement of recording movements between these farms wasn't there as with normal trading operations.
The delay has proven very costly, with many more animals to cull than could have been - given that how can it be the fault of the MPI, a farmer problem IMO.
It even affects us, the cull has created issues with trading our stock and also processors have less room to take them - would be difficult to be a cattle owner and not be affected by this one.

For me it highlights the importance of using all the available tools in place, and do more than the mimimum required by law to safeguard your industry - an industry that I am a very very small part of, but I'll be damned if I am going to be the weakest link.

 

[Farmer Roy]

yeah, but these Emmets seem to have an isolationist selfish I'm all right jack whats in it for me why should I help someone else or do anything for the greatest good because I should be thanked for cheap food dog walkers townies pikeys horses migrants politicians attitude

 

[Farmer Roy]

there'll be a new thread " which brand of reader is best ? "

 

[DRC]

I haven’t looked at the Eid thread, and try and keep out of any arguments on here now, but what you guys need to understand is that farmers over here have had a belly full of the rules and regs, all benefiting the government or supermarkets. Meanwhile they do nothing about the real problem of TB in the wildlife.
We were testing yesterday .( Mrs was very lucky not to get hurt, but that’s another matter), and the vet was very despondent about no progress in our area. One step forward then two back, with most farms going down then maybe clear for 6 months, then down again.
How about we trap all the badgers and stick double tags in their ears, so we can monitor their frigging movements and health status.
Anyway , I’ll wish you good morning and leave you to it.
Really how it rains soon for you that need it.
We have family in Kyabram Victoria

 

[waterbuffalofarmer]

Just random Haha. Mum noticed last night that my hair looks thinner than usual and not as nice as it does... Weird! I haven't noticed so she put me on algae tablets. Apparently they help the skin and hair. Has anyone tried them and had success with them. To think I'm ingesting wall moss

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Also, the sheep EID system I think has really hurt the credibility of their ability to run a peeup in a brewery, would that be fair to say @silverfox?
As a kiwi, now Tb interests me and concerns me a lot - I really do not know how they can justify not doing everything that is feasible to do something about an obvious public health issue and keep their jobs - a wise man said to me the other day about "a lack of connected thinking"?

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

At heart, EID's are for animal traceability. So if at slaughter or death that animal is found to have an issue - BSE, TB, etc. - it can be traced back to where it was infected and what it exposed along it's way. So really, in that scenario they don't need to be read at all.

But if a farmer wants to fully utilize their ability to link data and records electronically, then a reader is the way to go.

At the feedlot we could run through easily 700-800 head or more a day during processing. Between 7 am and 5 pm. You'd be very hard pressed doing that while manually writing everything down.

Bear in mind that the average UK livestock farm, despite all the big talking braggards, is still around 80 acres

As for pooling / sharing readers @CornishTone , since when have UK farmers actually been prepared to cooperate?

@cows sh#t me to tears many do use tech to provide tailored feed (I worked on a dairy unit in 1984 that had transponder collars and computerised individual feeding FFS) but they will all be 100 cows plus, many 250+. It's the small folk that have the small viewpoint.

Also, @Kiwi Pete , HDX cattle tags are only about 80p dearer than non EID ones here