Farmers treated the same worldwide.

[Sonoftheheir]

Protests in India -
Farmers' protest: Delhi turns into fortress as thousands march to India capital https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-68271356

 

[Sonoftheheir]

Farmers will always be poor, as they always will be price takers. But seems unrest is becoming more worldwide and I wonder where this will lead?

 

[Bald Rick]

Farmers will always be poor, as they always will be price takers. But seems unrest is becoming more worldwide and I wonder where this will lead?

Ultimately, of course, it will lead to food riots if agri-business cannot access the raw materials to make product.
IIRC Italy came very close to civil breakdown & rioting over food in 2020 and there are rumbling now about soaring pasta prices

There is a reason why Governments keep food both cheap and (esp in the First World) plentiful. And a possible reason why the EU appeared to back down so quickly in the face of a bit of escalation

I think we Welsh will be the first to properly have a go IF the Senedd refuse to listen. The Unions will not be able to control the more emotional element - especially those who feel their very way of life is under threat

 

[Hawkes]

I wonder if farming is properly PROFITABLE anywhere in the world? You wouldn't think so reading this forum. It does seem odd that the suppliers of Human Life sustaining products are so litle valued compared to say internet entrepreneurs.

 

[milkloss]

Ultimately, of course, it will lead to food riots if agri-business cannot access the raw materials to make product.
IIRC Italy came very close to civil breakdown & rioting over food in 2020 and there are rumbling now about soaring pasta prices

There is a reason why Governments keep food both cheap and (esp in the First World) plentiful. And a possible reason why the EU appeared to back down so quickly in the face of a bit of escalation

I think we Welsh will be the first to properly have a go IF the Senedd refuse to listen. The Unions will not be able to control the more emotional element - especially those who feel their very way of life is under threat

Which is why the unions need to step up and help organise protests if they are to happen. Things might get a little savage without a guide.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which is why the unions need to step up and help organise protests if they are to happen. Things might get a little savage without a guide.

Union(s) will be bypassed. When you have hill farmers going home and crying then the genie is already out of the bottle.

Hate to say it but if the Senedd don’t listen then there will be violence

 

[Sonoftheheir]

From the clip I saw of Drakeford I don’t think they are listening, looks like they’re going to steamroller it home.

 

[Sonoftheheir]

I wonder if farming is properly PROFITABLE anywhere in the world? You wouldn't think so reading this forum. It does seem odd that the suppliers of Human Life sustaining products are so litle valued compared to say internet entrepreneurs.

No doubt the same the world over, farmers getting hammered by the middle men and worldwide conglomerates. Trouble is we have perishable products.

 

[Northern territory]

Union(s) will be bypassed. When you have hill farmers going home and crying then the genie is already out of the bottle.

Hate to say it but if the Senedd don’t listen then there will be violence

I think you speak for the silent majority on this forum. Some on this forum who should know better are very happy with their SFI lot and don’t want to stir trouble. But you hit the nail on the head when saying a way of life is threatened

 

[Bald Rick]

I think you speak for the silent majority on this forum. Some on this forum who should know better are very happy with their SFI lot and don’t want to stir trouble. But you hit the nail on the head when saying a way of life is threatened

TBF we don’t rely on BPS but many on less advantageous land rightly or wrongly certainly do.

The nub of the problem is that output prices are far too cheap and have almost always been so to the extent that BPS and its forebears became a prop.

If farmers cannot or will not meet the criteria of SFS (in Wales) that prop will be kicked away and some farmers may ultimately have to leave the land.

We are dealing with a dogmatic and blinkered Welsh government who will not listen so fear and desperation has now entered the room.

 

[br jones]

net zero is the issue ,the only issue ,the only cause

 

[Bald Rick]

net zero is the issue ,the only issue ,the only cause

Agree 110% as I’ve been arguing all along but tell that to a Gwynedd hill farmer wondering how he’s going to plant X acres of trees which will likely only grow on the ffridd or his best land.

 

[Jsmith2211]

Farmers will always be poor, as they always will be price takers. But seems unrest is becoming more worldwide and I wonder where this will lead?

I disagree with the first two points. It is quite possible to stop being a price taker and quite possible to make money out of farming. It is more work, and is not what people are used to so they dont do it.

 

[Iben]

I wonder if farming is properly PROFITABLE anywhere in the world?

From what I see, I doubt it.

Watching news feeds etc, American farmers are struggling to export maize and soybeans as being undercut by Brazil. Then I read that agricultural bankruptcy is soaring in Brazil as to many selling below cost of production.

If big corporations keep that going then it will never end well.

I still don't get this idea that trees are our saviour in the northern Europe. From October to April deciduous trees are just a stick!
Rainforests are green all year, that's where the trees should be.

 

[Jsmith2211]

From what I see, I doubt it.

Watching news feeds etc, American farmers are struggling to export maize and soybeans as being undercut by Brazil. Then I read that agricultural bankruptcy is soaring in Brazil as to many selling below cost of production.

If big corporations keep that going then it will never end well.

I still don't get this idea that trees are our saviour in the northern Europe. From October to April deciduous trees are just a stick!
Rainforests are green all year, that's where the trees should be.

Bang on. Grow food here, leave the trees in the rainforrests. Dont try to cut the rainforrest down and plant little scrubby trees here. Those 100ft tall things are pulling a lot more carbon in than anything planted now will be for a long long time.

 

[br jones]

the uk and wales included along with the rest of the western world have committed to net zero ,so unless you can get goverments to change their stance we are going to die a death

 

[snarling bee]

It will certainly cure the obesity problem

 

[Bury the Trash]

TBF we don’t rely on BPS but many on less advantageous land rightly or wrongly certainly do.

The nub of the problem is that output prices are far too cheap and have almost always been so to the extent that BPS and its forebears became a prop.

If farmers cannot or will not meet the criteria of SFS (in Wales) that prop will be kicked away and some farmers may ultimately have to leave the land.

We are dealing with a dogmatic and blinkered Welsh government who will not listen so fear and desperation has now entered the room.

and desperate men do desperate things

 

[Goweresque]

No doubt the same the world over, farmers getting hammered by the middle men and worldwide conglomerates. Trouble is we have perishable products.

Farming is the one industry that cannot benefit from the same economies of scale that virtually every other industry can. There's a natural limit to the size of a farm (which varies from country to country) that means there will always be a lot of farmers compared to the number of buyers of their output, and as such they will always be in an ultra-competitive marketplace. There will never be 8 large farms in the UK that control 90% of the land in the way there are 8 large supermarkets that control 90% of the food retailing market, because a mega farm of 100,000 acres is no more competitive per tonne of output than ten 10,000 acres farms. Or even thirty three 3000 acre farms.

After all if size mattered the Co-op wouldn't have sold their farms, because they'd have been very profitable, being one of the biggest farming estates in the country. Instead the big land owners are either those who inherited it all (like the Crown etc) or have been given it (NT/charities) or are trying to hide wealth made elsewhere from the tax man (Dyson et al). No-one is hoovering up farmland because the more you've got the cheaper you can produce food and the more profit you make. Farming just doesn't work that way, and its the same whether we are talking livestock farms of a few hundred acres, arable farms of a thousand+ or even a farm in the Australian outback thats tens of thousands of acres.

Everywhere you go there's a natural limit to farm efficiency that is waaaay below the level that would allow the industry to consolidate into a similar number of big players to the agricultural supply and food processing/retailing sectors. And as such wherever you are in the world, however big or small your farm is you are always going to be a price taker, and all the efficiency gains that come from productivity increases will accrue to someone else but you. Mostly the industries that supply you, and buy your products, and the end consumer. You won't get to keep more than the pittance needed to keep you working the land. And it will be ever thus.

 

[Flatland guy]

Farming is the one industry that cannot benefit from the same economies of scale that virtually every other industry can. There's a natural limit to the size of a farm (which varies from country to country) that means there will always be a lot of farmers compared to the number of buyers of their output, and as such they will always be in an ultra-competitive marketplace. There will never be 8 large farms in the UK that control 90% of the land in the way there are 8 large supermarkets that control 90% of the food retailing market, because a mega farm of 100,000 acres is no more competitive per tonne of output than ten 10,000 acres farms. Or even thirty three 3000 acre farms.

After all if size mattered the Co-op wouldn't have sold their farms, because they'd have been very profitable, being one of the biggest farming estates in the country. Instead the big land owners are either those who inherited it all (like the Crown etc) or have been given it (NT/charities) or are trying to hide wealth made elsewhere from the tax man (Dyson et al). No-one is hoovering up farmland because the more you've got the cheaper you can produce food and the more profit you make. Farming just doesn't work that way, and its the same whether we are talking livestock farms of a few hundred acres, arable farms of a thousand+ or even a farm in the Australian outback thats tens of thousands of acres.

Everywhere you go there's a natural limit to farm efficiency that is waaaay below the level that would allow the industry to consolidate into a similar number of big players to the agricultural supply and food processing/retailing sectors. And as such wherever you are in the world, however big or small your farm is you are always going to be a price taker, and all the efficiency gains that come from productivity increases will accrue to someone else but you. Mostly the industries that supply you, and buy your products, and the end consumer. You won't get to keep more than the pittance needed to keep you working the land. And it will be ever thus.

True in the main, but one correction I think the Co-op farms were profitable/ borderline profitable but losses elsewhere meant the farmland was cashed in to fill a cash flow/ debt problem.