Farmers treated the same worldwide.

[Farmer Roy]

You sad carnts live in the wrong hemisphere

you wanna be in a country where agriculture is a major export earner & an important industry / contributor to your nations wealth

rather than being a drain on the tax payer . . .

 

[Farmer Roy]

The biggest problem we face as an industry is the threat of CLIMATE CHANGE. Hands down.

our second biggest threat is probably all the foreigners that want to invest in Australian agriculture, taking it out of Australian hands . . .

 

[Farmer Roy]

Relying on subsidies REALLY hasn’t worked for you lot has it, if all the moaning, pizzle dampening & hand wringing on this site is anything to go by

sad really, but you reap what you sow . . .

 

[Rnold]

Relying on subsidies REALLY hasn’t worked for you lot has it, if all the moaning, pizzle dampening & hand wringing on this site is anything to go by

sad really, but you reap what you sow . . .

We did not sow what we are expected to reap.
You talk as if farmers invented a subsidized system for their own needs. Farmers did not . It was a government policy to control production and price. If your Government decides this is the policy, you as a farmer producing the commodities that are controlled in this way, you have very little choice other than to take part. As well as output prices, Input costs , land charges and machinery costs are all influenced by the policy for everyone.
The governments here are going to have to relearn what the old regime was all about in terms of providing stable food production and inflation control. In the mean time they are going to subsidizes butterfly production and buy the food from you at what ever the market price happens to be on the day. If you have some to spare.

 

[Farmer Roy]

We did not sow what we are expected to reap.
You talk as if farmers invented a subsidized system for their own needs. Farmers did not . It was a government policy to control production and price. If your Government decides this is the policy, you as a farmer producing the commodities that are controlled in this way, you have very little choice other than to take part. As well as output prices, Input costs , land charges and machinery costs are all influenced by the policy for everyone.
The governments here are going to have to relearn what the old regime was all about in terms of providing stable food production and inflation control. In the mean time they are going to subsidizes butterfly production and buy the food from you at what ever the market price happens to be on the day. If you have some to spare.

Farmers - or their representatives, must have agreed to it ?
Farmers seemed quite happy to take the money & comply with the requirements - until they became too onerous. . .

 

[farmerm]

net zero is the issue ,the only issue ,the only cause

It isn’t, it’s just a log on top of a heavy burden of straws

 

[Two Tone]

@Panicnow, AKA peter Dawe asked me to post this on TFF yesterday.
IMO I think it highly relevant to this thread.

It seriously brings into question the large Grain buyers role in our destiny. Particularly the ones that not only buy our produce, but sell us the inputs we need to grow them. Leaving just about enough for us to keep going, but not to thrive any more.

Anyway, see what you make of it:


WHY ARE THE WORLD’S FARMERS REVOLTING? © P Dawe 224

Asia, Africa, S America, N America, and across Europe, farmers are taking to the streets.
If you look at each protest, the demands seem to vary, but why are they all happening now,
all at once?

Covid and the Ukraine war are the things that have precipitated these protests. These global
events caused a series of economic shocks to the global food system. These shocks were
felt globally, because the world’s food systems are highly integrated. International trade
prices impact the local price of food, even when a country has little international trade in
food.

The food system consists of suppliers to farmers (seed, fuel, fertiliser, pesticides etc.) the
farmers and their customers (Grain merchants, abattoirs, supermarkets and processors). In
a functioning market, changes in supply and demand would normally impact the profitability
of each part of the supply chain. The suppliers and the customers of farmers are typically
massive multi-nationals. However, farmers are fragmented and have no individual market
power. As a result, they are squeezed between these two behemoths.

Normally, the market leaves just enough value to farmers, that they continue to grow food.
However, the turbulence caused by Covid and Ukraine, meant that this narrow margin
disappeared, as the suppliers and customers used their market power to ensure THEY
maintained their profits. They shifted all the financial consequences to the farmers. As a
result the farmers ended up losing fortunes, in many cases going bankrupt, committing
suicide and even starving.

To make things worse, most farming works on cycles measured in years, rather than days.
So while suppliers and processors can stop trading in a matter of days, farmers are
committed to their produce for a year, and in the case of beef several years. Indeed, when
farmers could not afford cattle feed, they not only killed their beef early, they also killed their
brood heifers. Rebuilding a herd takes many years, assuming the farmer has the resources
to fund not sending to market any of their young female stock.

For the most part, governments world-wide, seeking to keep food prices low in the short
term, have turned a blind eye to the market abuse of farmers. As a consequence, they have
created the worst of all worlds. Every time there is a shortage of a particular food stuff, the
merchants make a killing, however when there is a surplus, they shift the problem to the
farmers. It is actually in the interest of the merchants to maintain a world shortage of food, as
they can control the price and thus their margin. Indeed, by not increasing the price to
farmers, they maintain the shortages. (The Chinese government is an exception, maintaining
an effective market for farmers throughout)

Many readers would be surprised that the global per capita consumption of meat and dairy
has dropped over 5% in the last 3 years and is not recovering. (I am reminded of “Let them eat
cake”). I.e. Many people have been reduced to living like paupers without regular complex
protein.

Sadly, most commentators on agriculture do not understand the above, or maybe
consciously divert attention. The usual comments are to say it’s “Red Diesel”, or “Subsidy”
or “government failure” or even “the weather”.

It isn’t. It's Market Failure, the long-term consequences are dire and I see no way to fix it.

 

[Iben]

You sad carnts live in the wrong hemisphere

you wanna be in a country where agriculture is a major export earner & an important industry / contributor to your nations wealth

rather than being a drain on the tax payer . . .

Iirc, you farm a couple of thousand acres and still have a second job to pay the bills?

 

[Iben]

Farmers - or their representatives, must have agreed to it ?
Farmers seemed quite happy to take the money & comply with the requirements - until they became too onerous. . .

Subsidy system started just after ww2. 1947 (?) Cheap food act. Encourage farmers to produce as much food as cheaply as possible for the hungry post war masses. Don't think there was any option put forward.

Agreed, like many Subsidy system, it went on far to long. Once it becomes multi generational, it becomes ingrained into the economics of the system and hard to get out of without costing the consumer more.

As has been said above. It remains as a tool for governments to try and control the industry.

 

[ladycrofter]

I think one of the underlying problems, in addition to the many spelled out in this thread, is the ongoing public perception that farmers are just clod- busters and sh!t- kickers, to use a few terms I head growing up. Nothing has changed.

The world governments know better than to take on high tech or any other occupation that requires a degree, for example. They know they'll be outsmarted because no one in government is really that clever. We talk about the disconnect in farming. Why is there no disconnect between the geek at his computer working for a large corporation and the link to the consumer? They are about as far apart from their customer as we are, and there are huge all-powerful corporations in between. Just like farming and consumers with the supermarkets in between.

It really pisses me off when someone asks about lambing and I start to describe things that require a high degree of knowledge - of anatomy and physiology and drugs for example - and skill, strength, dexterity and experience - and they're amazed .

But just one small example and it happens every year. Don't get me started on arable I wouldn't even know how to start a modern tractor much less all of the GPS and field mapping and whatnot, nutrient budgeting, pesticides etc.

We essentially all have Masters and PhDs in what we do, gained from education of many types and from experience, and we're all still open to learning every day, unlike many. But all the public see is a bunch of disorganised, easily silenced sodbusters and sh!t kickers. Until the politicians respect us the public won't. The average politician can't write his own computer software but he can grow a few wee tomato plants in his greenhouse. Is that the difference? I just feel we're looking in the wrong place for answers and need to start looking in unexpected places.
The Scottish government recently caved in on subsidies and the NFU took credit but I feel the real truth is that the government just can't face another battle right now up here because they're in the s*** so deep anyway.

 

[Goweresque]

True in the main, but one correction I think the Co-op farms were profitable/ borderline profitable but losses elsewhere meant the farmland was cashed in to fill a cash flow/ debt problem.

Hence my point, they were big, but were not making big money as a result. They had all that capital tied up in land, but they weren't making a satisfactory return on that money, because there are no economies of scale in farming beyond the natural point of efficiency.

According to Wikipedia, the Welcome Trust (who bought the 40k acres that the Co-op owned) split it into 12 separate businesses, each run as partnership with a contractor, which suggests they considered it was more efficiently farmed by a number of smaller businesses than one large one, which in turn suggests there are active dis-economies of scale to farming once you get beyond a certain point.

 

[Jsmith2211]

Hence my point, they were big, but were not making big money as a result. They had all that capital tied up in land, but they weren't making a satisfactory return on that money, because there are no economies of scale in farming beyond the natural point of efficiency.

According to Wikipedia, the Welcome Trust (who bought the 40k acres that the Co-op owned) split it into 12 separate businesses, each run as partnership with a contractor, which suggests they considered it was more efficiently farmed by a number of smaller businesses than one large one, which in turn suggests there are active dis-economies of scale to farming once you get beyond a certain point.

Return on capital is the reason that we don’t have large businesses farming. It’s simply not worth the capital to buy land unless they’re using it as a tax fiddle (Dyson)

 

[killie_cowboy]

Farmers - or their representatives, must have agreed to it ?
Farmers seemed quite happy to take the money & comply with the requirements - until they became too onerous. . .

As if you wouldn't take the money... jealousy gets you nowhere.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Relying on subsidies REALLY hasn’t worked for you lot has it, if all the moaning, pizzle dampening & hand wringing on this site is anything to go by

sad really, but you reap what you sow . . .

Any business that spends all it makes would be in a similar financial position, most of the time, to a wage-earner or beneficiary with that attitude/relationship with money.

It's all very well being a rocket scientist but someone has to pay for it or it's only
'an unproven theory'

 

[Farmer Roy]

Iirc, you farm a couple of thousand acres and still have a second job to pay the bills?

yes, I have been working a full time job in town for the last 3 years or so

but for nearly 30 years prior to that I was farming full time

the truth of the matter is that 2000 acres arable ( with 2 cropping seasons a year & growing about 5 different crops ) is at best, a part time job here. There just isn’t enough work to keep you fully occupied.
Why wouldn’t I go & work in town for a guaranteed $70K + a year, with no expenses, irrespective of grain markets or if it rains non stop for 2 months or doesn’t rain at all for 2 years . . . ?

Anyway, I’m only a small farmer, so I need something else to do with the rest of my time that earns some $$$$

I don’t see any problem with that ?

 

[Farmer Roy]

As if you wouldn't take the money... jealousy gets you nowhere.

hahahahaha

I certainly wouldn’t take the money, I am definitely NOT jealous. Personally, I am saddened at how it has affected UK agriculture & made it such a lame duck - it could be so much better if it was allowed to innovate & “fail” at times . . .

I am also VERY much on the record of being critical of government “drought” handouts here in Australia & the people who rely on them instead of taking control of their own destiny

jealous ?

I am SO, SO glad that we don’t have your system

you have NO idea

why would I possibly be jealous of a system that is soooo obviously broken ?

 

[Sonoftheheir]

It’s alright Rishi will save us -

PM announces support for farming amid industry 'crisis' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68342314

 

[Landrover]

It’s alright Rishi will save us -

PM announces support for farming amid industry 'crisis' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68342314

Which means more paperwork, adding to an already overstretched RPA, pay people for the schemes they are already in before announcing anymore!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

yes, I have been working a full time job in town for the last 3 years or so

but for nearly 30 years prior to that I was farming full time

the truth of the matter is that 2000 acres arable ( with 2 cropping seasons a year & growing about 5 different crops ) is at best, a part time job here. There just isn’t enough work to keep you fully occupied.
Why wouldn’t I go & work in town for a guaranteed $70K + a year, with no expenses, irrespective of grain markets or if it rains non stop for 2 months or doesn’t rain at all for 2 years . . . ?

Anyway, I’m only a small farmer, so I need something else to do with the rest of my time that earns some $$$$

I don’t see any problem with that ?

Totally agree, we are 2500ha and at absolute "peak" it's a full day or two in the same week, otherwise it's a daily stock check (use the drone a lot as it's quick and inobtrusive) and a shift per week

I am the other way around in that I've worked hard for 30 years and like having a holiday / retirement on the farm, money is no problem but time is. My boys need it

 

[Two Tone]

I am seriously wondering why I continue to come on TFF and end up stressed every morning.

For some like me, it is because I work on my own and I get lonely.
I need to communicate with others to break the loneliness
I expect this is a problem with farmers all over the world.

When the weather has been sh!te, the ground is sodden and the sun refuses to shine, things like TFF can become addictive in the hope of finding others to share our problems with.
But all we talk about is what is wrong with our industry, because there is a lot wrong with it.
Therefore we all end up with increased Cortisol levels.
And that ain’t good!

I’m really now wondering if this is doing many of us any good.
But how do we fix it?

The Catch 22 is that here in the UK we are forced to take the RPA Dollar to survive, only to find that it stresses even more, trying to comply with it.
This is because we are farmers and farming is what we know, do best and what we want to do.