Going forward with Oilseed Rape.

[Daniel]

Maybe things will balance out?

They might.

But why would you decimate a home grown industry on a 'maybe' simply to import the product from the rest of the world?

 

[DrWazzock]

Maybe things will balance out?

I agree in principle with your thoughts on these matters and see the same with fungicide usage. We started using them on beet as it boosted yield by maybe 5%. Now we are reliant on them, which is an idiotic thing to have done.
I would like to get away from insecticide usage entirely and am on the brink of doing so myself. I use none on the cereals but caved in on the beet. Whether the beet would be any worse than it is now without the sprayed on insecticides, I am actually uncertain. The seed coating based insecticide kept the aphids at bay but the sprays just don’t seem to work while causing massive collateral damage and imbalance.

I might be able to get a viable crop of OSR with favourable moisture and a Rolls Royce seedbed in late August but for me the days of sprinkling seed on a straw mat between boulders just won’t cut it any more. Needs a proper seedbed, correct depth, properly consolidated , no residuals or too much trash about.
“Getting out of the corner” is going to be interesting. We will have to try but I think we might find Mother Nature is fairly oblivious to our requirements to produce food on a large scale cheaply. We will produce something but whether it will compete with parts of the world who are less sensitive about such things is yet to be seen.

I worry we could go the way of coal mines, steel works, tanneries and other “dirty” industries with products then imported from areas where the nastiness is out of sight out of mind.

I live in hope though and persevere ..... until the money runs out.?

 

[Flat 10]

How long until they stopped working on beet?
I am have a friend who is involved with a really diverse business that grow about 40 crops conventional and organically. I think it was the cabbages recently they had to spray repeatedly for aphids and couldn’t get on top Of them, the organic cabbages have had much less pressure. This is all abit anecdotal but I’ve observed it on my organic neighbours farm that he seems to have a lot less insect pressure.
I honestly do think w have farmed ourselves into a corner with insecticides Atleast. We are no further ahead than 80 years ago, if anything it worse.
The U.K. should ban all insecticides.

Anecdotally I have the opposite experience. Took on some land that was farmed without insecticides for a decade or more, adjacent to an organic farm. Flea beetle pressure in beet and linseed has been higher than other parts of the farm. Aphids were bad too. I was disappointed as had expected them to be better. This year grew OSR and CSFB was terrible despite no insecticides on that field for 3 years and no OSR for 5. It had one insecticide in the autumn and this spring/summer has been riddled with pod midge, pollen beetle and mealy aphid causing further yield loss. I did not apply an insecticide after aug last year despite agronomists urgings. I think you are very naive @ajd132 if you think we can turn the clock back as large scale monoculture needed to feed 8billion people is ideal for pests and diseases.

 

[ajd132]

Anecdotally I have the opposite experience. Took on some land that was farmed without insecticides for a decade or more, adjacent to an organic farm. Flea beetle pressure in beet and linseed has been higher than other parts of the farm. Aphids were bad too. I was disappointed as had expected them to be better. This year grew OSR and CSFB was terrible despite no insecticides on that field for 3 years and no OSR for 5. It had one insecticide in the autumn and this spring/summer has been riddled with pod midge, pollen beetle and mealy aphid causing further yield loss. I did not apply an insecticide after aug last year despite agronomists urgings. I think you are very naive @ajd132 if you think we can turn the clock back as large scale monoculture needed to feed 8billion people is ideal for pests and diseases.

But even with GM bt cotton with 4 stacked traits has failed and now has to have repeated insecticide sprays.
‘Feed the world’ is a marketing tool that farmers lap up.

 

[Flat 10]

But even with GM bt cotton with 4 stacked traits has failed and now has to have repeated insecticide sprays.
‘Feed the world’ is a marketing tool that farmers lap up.

Well the world does need feeding. And I think whatever and I mean whatever we do pests and diseases will evolve to become problematic that’s how nature works. Now clearly there are better ways than using new and multiple chemicals but as said I think pests will ‘work out’ most of the things we can do given time.

 

[ajd132]

Well the world does need feeding. And I think whatever and I mean whatever we do pests and diseases will evolve to become problematic that’s how nature works. Now clearly there are better ways than using new and multiple chemicals but as said I think pests will ‘work out’ most of the things we can do given time.

i agree, which is why grumbling about neonics is pointless. resistance an inevitability.

 

[Brisel]

Well the world does need feeding. And I think whatever and I mean whatever we do pests and diseases will evolve to become problematic that’s how nature works. Now clearly there are better ways than using new and multiple chemicals but as said I think pests will ‘work out’ most of the things we can do given time.

I couldn't give a toss about feeding the world. That belief will not feed me and keep me in the manner I'd like to live. If you follow the herd, you will get what they do. The tricky bit is to be ahead of them with crops and techniques that mean nature's pests haven't adapted to them yet.

 

[Will 1594]

Drilling OSR next week?

Put 12 acre in last week on a fallow. . 15 kg ha Be interesting to see whst happens by end September when been eaten off by the white lice. ,

 

[DrWazzock]

I grow veg in my garden without pesticides. Lettuce has a few slugs and earwigs in them. I can wash most of them out. But you should hear them squirm if one has made it into the salad. I think it will need a sea change in the public’s attitude before they accept anything less than 100% perfect bug free produce.....but hypocritically they don’t want pesticides here. So in it comes from abroad while we are left with low uncompetitive yields, waste and poor quality produce nobody wants.

Wherever and whatever you farm you lay out a feast for certain pests and without some sort of artificial intervention you will struggle to optimise the crop. Relying on nature is a very hit and miss affair.

 

[DrWazzock]

I am open minded though and find it an interesting challenge. My aim is to be insecticide free ASAP.
The easy route is to eliminate those crops that need them. So I am back to turnips, cereals, possibly lupins and livestock..... but wait a minute, how do I keep the fly strike off the sheep? Keep goats instead. Never ending and far reaching implications in all this stuff.
Certainly I don’t like using pesticides and wouldn’t use them at all if I could find another way as I’m sure most farmers would.
Anyway it’s interesting to keep experimenting.
Onwards and upwards.

 

[Farmer Roy]

But even with GM bt cotton with 4 stacked traits has failed and now has to have repeated insecticide sprays.
‘Feed the world’ is a marketing tool that farmers lap up.

you might want to check your facts there

GM cotton in Australia is still VERY effective & has reduced insecticide sprays from 9, 10 or potentially unlimited in a nightmare scenario, to at times zero insecticide use. The BT genes are only targeting the major cotton pest, heliothis caterpillar, or as the yanks call it, the boll weevil, so at times it may be necessary to spray for aphids or thrips early in the season. However - these sprays can take out the beneficials as well & create more insect pressure further down the track. Our thresholds for these pests are much higher than they used to be, as a result.
In the 90’s it was standard practice to apply granular insecticide, either Thimet or Temik at 3 to 5 kg / ha at planting - both VERY nasty chemicals we needed to be licensed to handle. Now - I haven’t seen or heard of them for God knows how long, no one uses them now. We just don’t want to do that sh!t anymore
As I said to @Clive earlier in this discussion, you really need to look at the Australian cotton industry for a good example of IPM in action.
GM anything is not a magic bullet, just like any chemical isnt either.
We are VERY conscious of the possibility of resistance to BT, just like any chemical, & as an industry have a lot of protocols & cultural practices, including legislation & legal requirements, to protect the effectiveness of it. I am a ( dryland ) cotton grower & have been involved in both irrigated & dryland cotton since the early 90’s, in the bad old days before BT & IPM practices, when we were regularly ( sometimes weekly ) spraying very nasty, toxic insecticides. There is no way I would ever go back to that . . .
Cotton fields used to be sterile wastelands devoid of any life, now they are full of spiders & wasps & birds & soil life has significantly improved.
Cotton farmers actively encourage beneficial predators ( mainly spiders, lady birds / beetles & parasitic wasps ) & get excited to see evidence of them. Many actively plant trees or other plants to encourage them.
But - an effective IPM is CRUCIAL to making these technologies work & last

 

[Farmer Roy]

My experience is purely Australian, so I can’t speak for other countries, but I do know year’s ago Monsanto was warning against China & other countries stealing the GM cotton technology & not following all the guidelines, thus creating potential resistance issues in the future.
From what I have seen of the US & their beliefs in “freedom” & “individual rights”, it wouldn’t surprise me if they are having issues as well. For GM to be licensed in this country, we have very strict legislation & auditing procedures to allow us to use it. If we fail at this, we aren’t able to buy the seed. It is something our industry, our government, our rural suppliers & ultimately Monsanto / Bayer all take VERY seriously

so - any failing with GM crops is PURELY at the feet of farmers or their industry, for wanting to take shortcuts or not applying IPM or cultural practices to protect it, not anyone else

 

[ajd132]

you might want to check your facts there

GM cotton in Australia is still VERY effective & has reduced insecticide sprays from 9, 10 or potentially unlimited in a nightmare scenario, to at times zero insecticide use. The BT genes are only targeting the major cotton pest, heliothis caterpillar, or as the yanks call it, the boll weevil, so at times it may be necessary to spray for aphids or thrips early in the season. However - these sprays can take out the beneficials as well & create more insect pressure further down the track. Our thresholds for these pests are much higher than they used to be, as a result.
In the 90’s it was standard practice to apply granular insecticide, either Thimet or Temik at 3 to 5 kg / ha at planting - both VERY nasty chemicals we needed to be licensed to handle. Now - I haven’t seen or heard of them for God knows how long, no one uses them now. We just don’t want to do that sh!t anymore
As I said to @Clive earlier in this discussion, you really need to look at the Australian cotton industry for a good example of IPM in action.
GM anything is not a magic bullet, just like any chemical isnt either.
We are VERY conscious of the possibility of resistance to BT, just like any chemical, & as an industry have a lot of protocols & cultural practices, including legislation & legal requirements, to protect the effectiveness of it. I am a ( dryland ) cotton grower & have been involved in both irrigated & dryland cotton since the early 90’s, in the bad old days before BT & IPM practices, when we were regularly ( sometimes weekly ) spraying very nasty, toxic insecticides. There is no way I would ever go back to that . . .
Cotton fields used to be sterile wastelands devoid of any life, now they are full of spiders & wasps & birds & soil life has significantly improved.
Cotton farmers actively encourage beneficial predators ( mainly spiders, lady birds / beetles & parasitic wasps ) & get excited to see evidence of them. Many actively plant trees or other plants to encourage them.
But - an effective IPM is CRUCIAL to making these technologies work & last

I was referencing American cotton. Just from what I have read about it. Sounds like the Australians are far better at not solely relying on answers being provided to them.

 

[ajd132]

My experience is purely Australian, so I can’t speak for other countries, but I do know year’s ago Monsanto was warning against China & other countries stealing the GM cotton technology & not following all the guidelines, thus creating potential resistance issues in the future.
From what I have seen of the US & their beliefs in “freedom” & “individual rights”, it wouldn’t surprise me if they are having issues as well. For GM to be licensed in this country, we have very strict legislation & auditing procedures to allow us to use it. If we fail at this, we aren’t able to buy the seed. It is something our industry, our government, our rural suppliers & ultimately Monsanto / Bayer all take VERY seriously

so - any failing with GM crops is PURELY at the feet of farmers or their industry, for wanting to take shortcuts or not applying IPM or cultural practices to protect it, not anyone else

Your last paragraph very true. Did ANYONE in the U.K. do IPM for flea beetle control until the neonic was banned? Or did they solely rely on the chemical?

 

[Flat 10]

Your last paragraph very true. Did ANYONE in the U.K. do IPM for flea beetle control until the neonic was banned? Or did they solely rely on the chemical?

What is IPM for csfb? Other than decent length rotations? And perhaps not planting next door to last year’s osr?

 

[ajd132]

What is IPM for csfb? Other than decent length rotations? And perhaps not planting next door to last year’s osr?

All the things we are now doing, companion crops, Low disturbance direct drilling, long stubble, more N down the spout, earlier drilling, no insecticides, Farm saved seed to minimise capital risk, chicken manure, encouraging ecology within the rotation. The list goes on.

 

[Cowcorn]

But even with GM bt cotton with 4 stacked traits has failed and now has to have repeated insecticide sprays.
‘Feed the world’ is a marketing tool that farmers lap up.

Feed the world ???? Fucck that!!!! Fill your pockets is what i believe in . If not spraying is the way to go im all for it. But right now it aint so why ban. Something that works and is way better for the enviorment than the alternative . Seed dressings on beet being the obvious one.
As a disclaimer i must point out that after months of holding off on applying fungicide on my wheat because i couldnt see any disease all it got was a three guarter rate of bravo and a half rate of opera at T1 i will now be going through it with Revyosol or whatever its called this evening for my sins . The septoria is really starting to move after the rain and the Agronimist felt that it needed to be hit hard as if it stayed wet serious yield loss would occour
I didnt ask the price as i didnt want to get dizzy ,but at least the option of spraying is there without it what would it yield in a wet climate. Its not for nothing chemistry was devoloped for crop protection .

 

[Brisel]

Your last paragraph very true. Did ANYONE in the U.K. do IPM for flea beetle control until the neonic was banned? Or did they solely rely on the chemical?

Yes!

All the things we are now doing, companion crops, Low disturbance direct drilling, long stubble, more N down the spout, earlier drilling, no insecticides, Farm saved seed to minimise capital risk, chicken manure, encouraging ecology within the rotation. The list goes on.

Your list isn't exhaustive - we have 250km of field margins that provide habitat to beneficial insects and 14 km of beetle banks. Sadly, these aren't enough. By the time the beneficials have munched through them, the crop damage has already been done. The same applies to swarms of BYDV carrying aphids. I would seriously look at Countryside Stewardship for yourself & your clients if you haven't already. We haven't had to spray insecticides in the summer for years thanks to a higher threshold of treatment and this habitat.

For CSFB you can add sacrificial/trap crops and retaining volunteers on stubbles. I'm sure there are other measures too.

 

[ajd132]

Yes!



Your list isn't exhaustive - we have 250km of field margins that provide habitat to beneficial insects and 14 km of beetle banks. Sadly, these aren't enough. By the time the beneficials have munched through them, the crop damage has already been done. The same applies to swarms of BYDV carrying aphids. I would seriously look at Countryside Stewardship for yourself & your clients if you haven't already. We haven't had to spray insecticides in the summer for years thanks to a higher threshold of treatment and this habitat.

For CSFB you can add sacrificial/trap crops and retaining volunteers on stubbles. I'm sure there are other measures too.

We do not seem to be in too bad an area for insect infestations. We hadn’t used deter for a good few years before it was banned. However I don’t know if we didn’t have problems because of everyone else still using it, or the problem was just not there. Maybe abit of both?

 

[Brisel]

I had a discussion with my BASIS viva panel - I said that organic farmers had a bit of a free ride thanks to the pesticide using neighbours reducing the burden of infection/infestation. It certainly woke them up & I passed the exam!

A bit of both sounds more accurate. Controlling any problem is always a combination of measures & certainly is now that we don't find the answer in one can.