Home build dd tine drill??

[MattR]

How about this as a cheap way of getting into direct drilling? I have this...

and this...
(bit rougher now as that photo's 20 years old).

Whack the DL hopper on top of the pigtail cultivator, change the pigtail shears for (?)Baurgault points or whatever the experts recommend, sort out a metering wheel, depth wheels and a few other bits and pieces, job done??

Obviously it would be a bit more involved than that, but how have people got on with these sorts of home builds? There must be a few around - I came across a thread where @clbarclay shared a couple photos of his, which looks exactly the sort of thing I had in mind- are you pleased with how yours has turned out @clbarclay - are there many limitations/downsides compared to buying a "proper" drill?

My main questions/thoughts:
1. Generally is it worth considering or would I be better off with a more conventional approach - like buying a t-sem as I was asking about the other day?
2. Slot closure - what is the best way to achieve this/would this be an issue?
3. What points to use? Fit onto the pigtail legs or buy "proper" ones?
4. The hopper I'm guessing would have to be mounted fairly high above the pigtailer frame for one thing to allow access to change broken tines etc. That would mean the PTO either having to go through a gearbox of some sort or converting it to hydraulic drive?? What are the pros/cons?
5. OR convert the hopper to a front hopper (or buy one) - might be an easier job than mounting it on the cultivator. But does the drill need the weight of the hopper on it though? If so easy enough to put weights on it I suppose. Would also mean investing in a front linkage etc, an extra cost I could do without.
6. What would it be like into ploughed/cultivated seedbeds?
7. How many HP would I need?

Are there any other issues/obstacles I haven't thought about? Cheers!

 

[ih1455xl]

These are all bourgault parts

Under Construction

 

[nick...]

I’ve been considering the same fir a while.im sure you could make something for less than £10k.simple wheel drive fir seed distribution and simple andy guest type markers for tramline great.i think all these new drills are too complicated with electric everything
nick...

 

[clbarclay]

I would save the cash from bout markers and put it towards an auto steer system instead. My experience of bout markers while direct drilling is not great at best. During a GD demo, I gave up using the bout markers as most of the time I was relying on lining up a bolt on the front mudguard with the outer row of the last bout to get me in the right place to find the illusive bout marker mark. I even had Guest on my tine drill at one point. Mounting them on a pig tail cultivator wasn't even as straight forward as we had hoped either.

I am quite pleased with how mine is working out, but it is still a work in progress. I finished rigging up zig zag harrows on the back of it and gave it a quick test today, ready for drilling beans. Not grate for trash flow, but finally got a harrow on it that really covers the slots well.



Personally, I think that even the commercial drills have their sort comings, so buying off the shelf won't necessarily work as well as you want.

Slot closing is an issue for all tine drills, no matter how low disturbance they claim to be. *Other peoples experiences and soils may vary. A tines natural instinct when direct drilling (even with very narrow points) is to move all the soil from directly in front of it and spread it about on top of the undisturbed soil between them. Some soil from the back rows get spread over slots left by the front rows, but the back row tends to be left very open by the seeding tines. I have tried a some different harrows mounted on this drill and nearly always ended up doing a pass with the stubble rake after drilling. The heavy chains on the Simtech didn't do a good for covering the slots it left on the Demo I had. One of this winter projects is to remake a following harrow using a lot straight tines like these ones linked bellow, with 2 or 3 between every drill row, arranged over 3 banks with adjustable rake angle. The KV TS harrow tines I tried on it weren't effective enough.

Following Harrow Tine (single) to fit Vaderstad Cultivation Equipment OEM: 400975 - Agri-Linc

Straight 12mm diameter tine

www.agri-linc.com

I am using Bourgault knife opener points and seed boots on standard 1" pigtail tines. They work well, but the 1" pigtails aren't really strong enough and I have bust my way through quite a lot of them now, I haven't kep a record to know exactly how many ha per tine I'm getting, but guesstimate I'm breaking 1 every 50 to 100 ha. You can see a couple of spare tines clamped on top of the frame in that picture. A lot of its direct drilling however has been putting in beans at least 4" deep and I had never bust a tine while it was mintill drilling they whole farm every year before we got into direct drilling. I'm planning on changing to 30mm pigtails, however as well as needing need frame clamps, the 1" pigtails seem to have different point hole spacing (60mm) compared to pretty much any other pigtail tine (45mm), so would need new seed boot holders and quick change point adapters. I would recommend getting 30mm tines for it before buying points and seed boots to suit. £145 each for complete Saber tines does look very attractive, but they won't fit this frame and don't look to have as much under frame clearance either.

This drill is currently on 214mm row spacing (16 tines over 3.43m) and I wouldn't want to reduce the clearance around the tines any. It has it's limits, but it has drilled through a tall cover crop that was bunging up the unidrill and even drilled beans through swaths of oat straw that got rained on for a month (pic bellow). That was only across the swaths though, not along them. The headland swaths needed a pass over with the flail mower before I could finish that field.



Go hydro fan drive, makes mounting a fan above a cultivator frame so much more sensible. Totally worth it and also gives you independent control of tractor and fan revs. Only downside so far was the first year after converting it and our main tractor broke down, which was the only one we had at the time with CCLS hydraulics. I would like a front hopper, but none of our tractors have front linkage and this way the drill could be used with or without a front hopper. Unlike the Simtech, a 6 cylinder 4wd tractor can handle this drill without needing front ballast, though a some does help when the hopper is full. I would prefer to use extra seed in a hopper as front ballast though, instead of just weight blocks.

When I first made put the accord hopper on that cultivator, it was as a min till drill and got used for everything at the tine, including on ploughing. It had a crumbler roller on the back then, though that was a mixed blessing. One issue with rear rollers is the long distance between the roller and the front tines meant that the depth could vary a lot on the more uneven fields. With those depth wheels in between the tines, that distance is kept a lot shorter and depth doesn't vary as much.

Power wise, I reckon it normally needs just under 5 hp per tine to pull it, unless going up a steep hill. Like a Simtech, if the tractor can pick it up, it can pull it.


Other things of note. My father originally got non-tungsten knife openers for it to min till beans into shakaerated ground. They were fine for that and our soil is not abrasive. A new set of plough points would do the whole farm before they needed turning. However when direct drilling the points wore rounded and they didn't penetrate anything like so well. This drill was actually trailed at that time, so it had the weight, but I think it put a lot of strain on the tines then. The tungsten tipped openers on it now are holding their shape so much better and will last me for many years.

 

[Devon James]

You could consider using a length of potato harvester web at the back of the drill. With a length of chain to the back it can be controlled to how much is in work...in good going just a short section of it on the ground...in stickier going let the whole lot into work to cover the seed.

 

[MattR]

Thanks @clbarclay for such an informative and detailed reply- much appreciated. Certainly given me some food for thought.

 

[Grass And Grain]

I would save the cash from bout markers and put it towards an auto steer system instead. My experience of bout markers while direct drilling is not great at best. During a GD demo, I gave up using the bout markers as most of the time I was relying on lining up a bolt on the front mudguard with the outer row of the last bout to get me in the right place to find the illusive bout marker mark. I even had Guest on my tine drill at one point. Mounting them on a pig tail cultivator wasn't even as straight forward as we had hoped either.

I am quite pleased with how mine is working out, but it is still a work in progress. I finished rigging up zig zag harrows on the back of it and gave it a quick test today, ready for drilling beans. Not grate for trash flow, but finally got a harrow on it that really covers the slots well.



Personally, I think that even the commercial drills have their sort comings, so buying off the shelf won't necessarily work as well as you want.

Slot closing is an issue for all tine drills, no matter how low disturbance they claim to be. *Other peoples experiences and soils may vary. A tines natural instinct when direct drilling (even with very narrow points) is to move all the soil from directly in front of it and spread it about on top of the undisturbed soil between them. Some soil from the back rows get spread over slots left by the front rows, but the back row tends to be left very open by the seeding tines. I have tried a some different harrows mounted on this drill and nearly always ended up doing a pass with the stubble rake after drilling. The heavy chains on the Simtech didn't do a good for covering the slots it left on the Demo I had. One of this winter projects is to remake a following harrow using a lot straight tines like these ones linked bellow, with 2 or 3 between every drill row, arranged over 3 banks with adjustable rake angle. The KV TS harrow tines I tried on it weren't effective enough.

Following Harrow Tine (single) to fit Vaderstad Cultivation Equipment OEM: 400975 - Agri-Linc

Straight 12mm diameter tine

www.agri-linc.com

I am using Bourgault knife opener points and seed boots on standard 1" pigtail tines. They work well, but the 1" pigtails aren't really strong enough and I have bust my way through quite a lot of them now, I haven't kep a record to know exactly how many ha per tine I'm getting, but guesstimate I'm breaking 1 every 50 to 100 ha. You can see a couple of spare tines clamped on top of the frame in that picture. A lot of its direct drilling however has been putting in beans at least 4" deep and I had never bust a tine while it was mintill drilling they whole farm every year before we got into direct drilling. I'm planning on changing to 30mm pigtails, however as well as needing need frame clamps, the 1" pigtails seem to have different point hole spacing (60mm) compared to pretty much any other pigtail tine (45mm), so would need new seed boot holders and quick change point adapters. I would recommend getting 30mm tines for it before buying points and seed boots to suit. £145 each for complete Saber tines does look very attractive, but they won't fit this frame and don't look to have as much under frame clearance either.

This drill is currently on 214mm row spacing (16 tines over 3.43m) and I wouldn't want to reduce the clearance around the tines any. It has it's limits, but it has drilled through a tall cover crop that was bunging up the unidrill and even drilled beans through swaths of oat straw that got rained on for a month (pic bellow). That was only across the swaths though, not along them. The headland swaths needed a pass over with the flail mower before I could finish that field.



Go hydro fan drive, makes mounting a fan above a cultivator frame so much more sensible. Totally worth it and also gives you independent control of tractor and fan revs. Only downside so far was the first year after converting it and our main tractor broke down, which was the only one we had at the time with CCLS hydraulics. I would like a front hopper, but none of our tractors have front linkage and this way the drill could be used with or without a front hopper. Unlike the Simtech, a 6 cylinder 4wd tractor can handle this drill without needing front ballast, though a some does help when the hopper is full. I would prefer to use extra seed in a hopper as front ballast though, instead of just weight blocks.

When I first made put the accord hopper on that cultivator, it was as a min till drill and got used for everything at the tine, including on ploughing. It had a crumbler roller on the back then, though that was a mixed blessing. One issue with rear rollers is the long distance between the roller and the front tines meant that the depth could vary a lot on the more uneven fields. With those depth wheels in between the tines, that distance is kept a lot shorter and depth doesn't vary as much.

Power wise, I reckon it normally needs just under 5 hp per tine to pull it, unless going up a steep hill. Like a Simtech, if the tractor can pick it up, it can pull it.


Other things of note. My father originally got non-tungsten knife openers for it to min till beans into shakaerated ground. They were fine for that and our soil is not abrasive. A new set of plough points would do the whole farm before they needed turning. However when direct drilling the points wore rounded and they didn't penetrate anything like so well. This drill was actually trailed at that time, so it had the weight, but I think it put a lot of strain on the tines then. The tungsten tipped openers on it now are holding their shape so much better and will last me for many years.

What a most fantastically helpful and descriptive post. Thank you.

If ever I take the plunge into DD, I'm going to either copy yours (if you don't mind), the one made by @Wombat , or just buy a Horsch CO. Any of those three would be good options.

 

[alomy75]

Sabre tines are fantastic (I have them in a freeflow) but have not got the length you need to give sufficient under-drill clearance in very trashy conditions imo. Can drill osr into baled stubble but failed when I LD subsoiled it first. Front tank opens up possibility of putting whatever you like on the back and if it’s a hyd fan one you could just hang it on the tombstone (@Bob lincs used to do this). Following harrow; I’d go for the vaderstad or horsch double-prong design. Something with a bit of beef to it. Drill adapting is a lot of fun but with the hidden costs; time involved; zero back-up and negligible resale value I’m not sure I’d do it again. As above a CO or Sprinter allows you to just bolt on whatever coulters you like/make your own but you can still return it to standard and sell it for probably close to what you paid for it if you’re careful. Just my opinion!

 

[Hobbit]

Sabre tines are fantastic (I have them in a freeflow) but have not got the length you need to give sufficient under-drill clearance in very trashy conditions imo. Can drill osr into baled stubble but failed when I LD subsoiled it first. Front tank opens up possibility of putting whatever you like on the back and if it’s a hyd fan one you could just hang it on the tombstone (@Bob lincs used to do this). Following harrow; I’d go for the vaderstad or horsch double-prong design. Something with a bit of beef to it. Drill adapting is a lot of fun but with the hidden costs; time involved; zero back-up and negligible resale value I’m not sure I’d do it again. As above a CO or Sprinter allows you to just bolt on whatever coulters you like/make your own but you can still return it to standard and sell it for probably close to what you paid for it if you’re careful. Just my opinion!

Could you bolt a Saber tine to a Horch CO/sprinter out of interest?

 

[alomy75]

We were discussing this the other day; not without an adaptor plate but that would be no biggy. But (from memory) sabretine is more money than a metcalfe as it is; laser cut adaptors would enhance the price difference. May as well just use metcalfe. You could however get a whole new laser cut tine cut (based on metcalfe/sabre design) to bolt straight on and if you’re handy in the workshop attach a seed tube. You can get weld-on carbide(?) tiles also for the wear. Could be done a lot cheaper if you don’t include your time but as there are so few tines on a 4 or 6m it’s hardly worth it imo.

 

[clbarclay]

CO does seem like a very sensible starting point now. I started build mine back when they were all the rage and were still big money second hand.

 

[alomy75]

We’d been looking for a CO/Sprinter for 6 months before we got sorted; CO’s ranged from 4-12k CO-spring sprinters from 15-22k and current spring sprinters from 20-45k of what we saw. All 4m.

 

[alomy75]

Not saying we only saw 4m; just that was what we were after!

 

[Bob lincs]

We’d been looking for a CO/Sprinter for 6 months before we got sorted; CO’s ranged from 4-12k CO-spring sprinters from 15-22k and current spring sprinters from 20-45k of what we saw. All 4m.

You could buy a brand new sabre tine for that money .

 

[alomy75]

Absolutely and then probably have to turn round to buy the coulters. Like all of this it’s horses for courses; some like discs, some like tines, some like a packer and some don’t. What works one year might not another. We all can say what works on our land/in our system but there’s no substitute to a demo/contractor on your own land to decide what system works most of the time and then it’s a case of best achieving that going forward.

 

[MattR]

Home-build or purchase, am I right to be thinking to go down the tine route initially if we have a go at direct drilling? I see occasional old Moore unidrills advertised for not-ridiculous money, are they (or similar) worth considering or is there an advantage to the relative simplicity/versatility of a tine drill? (I'm on fairly well-draining, generally sloping medium loam, high-ish rainfall)

On a similar note, there does seem to have been a marked change in attitudes over the the last couple years on TFF - all the photos/videos of 750As etc have given way to COs and the like - is that a fair comment or just my perception?

 

[ih1455xl]

I really like the look of one of these drills very simple could email it make one out of a wilrich cultivator

https://www.agriaffaires.co.uk/used/no-till-seed-drill/40292033/guilbart-tdrill-contour.html

 

[Wombat]

What a most fantastically helpful and descriptive post. Thank you.

If ever I take the plunge into DD, I'm going to either copy yours (if you don't mind), the one made by @Wombat , or just buy a Horsch CO. Any of those three would be good options.

Popped a full build thread up now for mine

 

[alomy75]

Home-build or purchase, am I right to be thinking to go down the tine route initially if we have a go at direct drilling? I see occasional old Moore unidrills advertised for not-ridiculous money, are they (or similar) worth considering or is there an advantage to the relative simplicity/versatility of a tine drill? (I'm on fairly well-draining, generally sloping medium loam, high-ish rainfall)

On a similar note, there does seem to have been a marked change in attitudes over the the last couple years on TFF - all the photos/videos of 750As etc have given way to COs and the like - is that a fair comment or just my perception?

We used to run a gravity- and an air-fed Moore. Really well made; heavy, would penetrate into the road if you really wanted to but in a wet time created a slug super highway on heavy land and slot closure was an issue. I believe the later ones with the wedge press wheels were somewhat better. Couldn’t possibly comment on the disc vs tine debate

 

[MattR]

I was having another think about this and wondered - will an accord fan blow seed down the plastic tubes at a shallow angle over a longer length, or would they choke up?

My thinking being that the hopper could be mounted on the tractor as normal, and the "drill" (pigtailer) kind of semi-mounted behind it, thus not completely sacrificing the Accord if it didn't work out, and also not having to bother converting the fan to hydraulic drive and all the work of putting the accord on top of the pigtail frame. Hence my question above, as the tubes from the mushroom to the rear coulters would be a few feet long and at a very shallow angle.