How common is it to get a Penn Hip before investing in training a sheapdog?

[ringi]

Penn Hip unlike traditional hip xray can be done as young as 18 weeks while still giving a good prediction of hip issues in later life. The focus is normally on using it to select dogs to breed from, but as sheep dog training is either costly or takes a lot of time investment it seems sensible to start with a puppy that is likely to have a longer working life.

(Clearly a sheepdog with a little hip pain can still be useful on many farms.)

 

[Anymulewilldo]

Are bad hips a big thing in sheep dogs? It’s a laborador problem? I always thought eyesight was the big issue in collies

 

[Mc115reed]

Are bad hips a big thing in sheep dogs? It’s a laborador problem? I always thought eyesight was the big issue in collies

It’s deafness I struggle with

 

[Anymulewilldo]

It’s deafness I struggle with

We’ll that too but I find that’s very selective

 

[ringi]

Are bad hips a big thing in sheep dogs? It’s a laborador problem? I always thought eyesight was the big issue in collies

Yes, but partly being overfed makes bad hip more painful and laboradors loves their food. Moderate hip problems will show up as a dog that is no longer keen to spend all day running, but are unlikely to trigger a visit to a vat for a formal diagnostics.

So beeding from the best older male sheepdogs will tend to select against significant hip problems.

There is puppy eye screening for collies that claims to predict the dogs most likely to get functional eyesight problems and at least one formal assessment system for eye sight screening of breeding dogs. But I only know of them being used by pet dog breeders.

 

[yellowbelly]

It’s deafness I struggle with

Everybody in the village used to think my last bitch was called Bugger - all everybody ever heard me shout was, "Lie down you BUGGER."

 

[unlacedgecko]

Penn Hip unlike traditional hip xray can be done as young as 18 weeks while still giving a good prediction of hip issues in later life. The focus is normally on using it to select dogs to breed from, but as sheep dog training is either costly or takes a lot of time investment it seems sensible to start with a puppy that is likely to have a longer working life.

(Clearly a sheepdog with a little hip pain can still be useful on many farms.)

I've never heard of it.

There's few enough people do the hips and elbows of the breeding stock.

 

[Anymulewilldo]

Yes, but partly being overfed makes bad hip more painful and laboradors loves their food. Moderate hip problems will show up as a dog that is no longer keen to spend all day running, but are unlikely to trigger a visit to a vat for a formal diagnostics.

So beeding from the best older male sheepdogs will tend to select against significant hip problems.

There is puppy eye screening for collies that claims to predict the dogs most likely to get functional eyesight problems and at least one formal assessment system for eye sight screening of breeding dogs. But I only know of them being used by pet dog breeders.

The 2 working bitches I’ve bought that were supposedly eye checked and correct. Both were blind before they were 10. I only bred off one of them and kept a bitch. Never bred from her (just the way it happened, not planned or anything) she was 15 before she started going blind. But our stud dog at the time was 17 when he was PTS and he had eyes clear as you like

 

[ringi]

For one of the eye conditions there is a DNA test, for the others the best you can do is get an expert eye examination just before each planned mating as the conditions are more likely to be detected at a older age but can't be ruled out by an eye examination.

 

[JSmith]

Everybody in the village used to think my last bitch was called Bugger - all everybody ever heard me shout was, "Lie down you BUGGER."

Your dog must be very well behaved if it’s got a lovely name like that! The initial to my list of names for dogs normally start with an f or a c, that’s more a reflection of my dog training skills and vocabulary rather than the talent of the dog

 

[ringi]

Everybody in the village used to think my last bitch was called Bugger - all everybody ever heard me shout was, "Lie down you BUGGER."

Next time close the bedroom windows.....

 

[Hill Ground]

Buy a mongrel, they last forever, and still get the job done!!!

 

[ringi]

Buy a mongrel, they last forever, and still get the job done!!!

But how do you know its worth investing in their training without knowing how well both parents work?

 

[unlacedgecko]

Buy a mongrel, they last forever, and still get the job done!!!

You must have some very good mongrels. Or some very low standards.

 

[Hill Ground]

You must have some very good mongrels. Or some very low standards.

The easiest way to achieve your standards is to lower them!!!

But how do you know its worth investing in their training without knowing how well both parents work?

Speaking for myself a cross bred, or non pedigree dog should be totally capable of good farm level work.

Every pedigree animal I have ever owned has been a disappointment, in some way or another. Health issues and how closely they are related tend to get over looked when making breeding choices too!

Best dog I've ever had was a hunterway collie cross. Capable if anything, especially penning big mobs single handed. Not the prettiest animal in the world though, with a head like a concrete block!!!

 

[Anymulewilldo]

The 2 most useless collies I’ve ever had were pedigree and bred to the nines. Bits of paper make f**k all difference to wether a dog is going to be any use. None of my current bunch are even registered and they might be rough, feral and occasionally subject to language similar to @JSmith ’s but they get the sheep in

 

[unlacedgecko]

The easiest way to achieve your standards is to lower them!!!

Speaking for myself a cross bred, or non pedigree dog should be totally capable of good farm level work.

I used to think similar, but I've shot every cross bred dog I've ever had.

Every pedigree animal I have ever owned has been a disappointment, in some way or another. Health issues and how closely they are related tend to get over looked when making breeding choices too!

I'll never have anything other than line bred dogs. Don't much care for papers, but the best way to get a consistent good line of dogs is breed them close and cull them hard. All of Rosie's breeding dogs are health tested to the 9s. And hip/elbow scored.

2 young bitches (3rd generation) were at the vets today for x-rays.

Best dog I've ever had was a hunterway collie cross. Capable if anything, especially penning big mobs single handed. Not the prettiest animal in the world though, with a head like a concrete block!!!

I had one similar. When I took him to pairs for the first time he bit me instead of the cattle. I would very shocked and disappointed.

 

[Hill Ground]

cull them hard

I would imagine you would be one of the only people to actively cull underperforming or unhealthy dogs though.

I think it's admirable to have a strict culling policy on all types of animal, but not everybody does!!!

 

[unlacedgecko]

I would imagine you would be one of the only people to actively cull underperforming or unhealthy dogs though.

Probably why contractors keep telling me what good dogs I have

I think it's admirable to have a strict culling policy on all types of animal, but not everybody does!!!

Yeah well, fück em. I can safely say none of my dogs have ever ended up in a shelter. And I give a 100% no questions asked refund life time guarantee on any pup I breed.

 

[JSmith]

I would imagine you would be one of the only people to actively cull underperforming or unhealthy dogs though.

I think it's admirable to have a strict culling policy on all types of animal, but not everybody does!!!

When I was into terriers and lurchers big time when I was younger, the older guy who I learnt a lot off would say “if it’s no good to us why would we want to give someone else our rubbish cus it’s no good to them either”!
Also if you were to give your second rate dogs away, you’d soon get a name for breeding rubbish! I’ve seen him put down dogs that most week end hunters would be glad to own but if he wouldn’t keep it he didn’t want anyone else to either!
Rubbish breeds rubbish, cull hard and keep the very best and you’ll end up with the best hopefully, there always room for improvement though no matter how far up the tree you get, if there wasn’t no one would breed anything