If you tell lies you'll get caught out eventually

[matthew]

Its all a bit foreign to me.

But if the bull calves are good, what is the problem for commercial use ie bulling sucler cows or dairy cows?

I do agree though it is all a bit sordid.

The point is that for pedigree breeders, paying megabucks for a certain bloodline, it may not be there at all.

But the main involvement of CTS / BCMS is the parentage on the passport of the correct dam and birth date .
And that's a legacy of BSE. If that isn't correct, the animal is basically worthless, both for breeding, meat or any compensation for notifiable or insured disease.

So it's not merely 'sordid', it's fraud.

 

[A1an]

Most pedigree bulls will be by AI so can’t be a cock up

ever tried stand up?

 

[nails]

If it's the same cases that I'm thinking of, it was a breakdown in communication between the society, the health scheme, and the two breeders involved.
The breeders status had dropped but wasn't picked up on by the society, I'm not saying the breeders were innocent, but at least the society and staff weren't cashing in on it.
It all gets verified now by the society, direct from the health scheme provider.

Breakdown of communication my arse . The breeder was responsible at that time for filling in the health status of the herd on the entry form. so the buck stops with them. Yes it is checked by the Society now but the fraudulent claims were still made
Part of the Farmers Guardian article.
“It is therefore very disappointing to report that on verifying health declarations for the forthcoming October sale at Stirling we have found a small minority of breeders have been making false health declarations. These breeders have been immediately suspended from society sales whilst a full enquiry is carried out by the society disciplinary committee.

 

[M-J-G]

Breakdown of communication my arse . The breeder was responsible at that time for filling in the health status of the herd on the entry form. so the buck stops with them. Yes it is checked by the Society now but the fraudulent claims were still made
Part of the Farmers Guardian article.
“It is therefore very disappointing to report that on verifying health declarations for the forthcoming October sale at Stirling we have found a small minority of breeders have been making false health declarations. These breeders have been immediately suspended from society sales whilst a full enquiry is carried out by the society disciplinary committee.

Not sure who your arse has to do with it.
The article in the FG was quite vague, as per usual.

A break down (or missing link if you prefer) in communication, whereby the society were not verifying the status of the herds.
That was always going to be a loophole that some were going to use, I'd have thought that pretty obvious.

I don't defend it, but I still don't find that as much a cause for concern as this current Lim issue, where the society appear not to have acted on a known issue and further more proceeded to make money from what was always going to be a totally mess, which they appear to have allowed to get totally out of hand.

In the situation you mention the society acted promptly and dealt with it there and then. This one stinks to high heaven IMO, particularly when you see the same names cropping up in association with various bodies that have played a part in this mess.

 

[Agrivator]

Now that BSE is more or less contained, the accurate identity of the mother of any calf registered at BCMS is a minor issue. What is more concerning is the deliberate advancement of birth date.

And anyone who thinks calves haven't been swapped at birth in pedigree herds or their birthdates fabricated for generations, either by mistake or deliberate, is naïve in the extreme.

 

[Farmer Fin]

Now that BSE is more or less contained, the accurate identity of the mother of any calf registered at BCMS is a minor issue. What is more concerning is the deliberate advancement of birth date.

And anyone who thinks calves haven't been swapped at birth in pedigree herds or their birthdates fabricated for generations, either by mistake or deliberate, is naïve in the extreme.

Total agree with the second part. However not the first part. Yes BSE is rare now but we never know what is round the corner. It doesn’t take much to rock the boat with food safety. Even more important if we have to strike trade deals in the future.

 

[egbert]

So Jägerbomb was registered to a different cow than he was actually born too? I can understand how a sire could be mixed up, if I swap bulls over half way through working season there’s a couple weeks in middle of calving where calves could be by either bull but a Dam?! A twin set onto a cow and then registered to the foster mum? Only way that I can see it being a genuine mistake.... otherwise what would they have to gain by swapping about dams?

Once or twice a year we'll find cows newly calved next to each other, and cross mothering. It can easily happen that you're not sure which dam is which.
Had it with 2 young South Devon cows with 3 calves this spring. Which are the twins? We're not sure (they were all much of a muchness for size)....have i got one fremartin or two?.
Mind, no-one is going to be giving me thousands apiece for em, so it won't matter much beyond the obvious.

 

[egbert]

Surely all the Polled black limmos will have some Angus in their DNA so how does that work? Are they allowed a certain %

ha! I'd be wanting some tests on the train running the other way down that track!

 

[AftonShepherd]

Once or twice a year we'll find cows newly calved next to each other, and cross mothering. It can easily happen that you're not sure which dam is which.
Had it with 2 young South Devon cows with 3 calves this spring. Which are the twins? We're not sure (they were all much of a muchness for size)....have i got one fremartin or two?.
Mind, no-one is going to be giving me thousands apiece for em, so it won't matter much beyond the obvious.

How could you have two freemartins? Surely no more than one heifer can be twin to a bull?

I see, even so, that you couldn't be sure which one was the freemartin.

 

[puppet]

Total agree with the second part. However not the first part. Yes BSE is rare now but we never know what is round the corner. It doesn’t take much to rock the boat with food safety. Even more important if we have to strike trade deals in the future.

I agree that the traceability is more important than age since the 30 month rule was relaxed. I think the rationale for tagging by 20 days for beef is to reduce the chances of mix ups and even more likely in dairy calves.
The recent BSE case had the progeny identified and culled so reassuring (hopefully) to consumers. If we cannot rely on that then trust and trade goes.
We only have commercial cows and there is the odd confusion with a cow due to calve trying to mother another but lose interest once they have their own. However if I was breeding high cost pedigree cattle someone would almost be living with them when they were due to calve

 

[Bill the Bass]

.

Now that BSE is more or less contained, the accurate identity of the mother of any calf registered at BCMS is a minor issue. What is more concerning is the deliberate advancement of birth date.

And anyone who thinks calves haven't been swapped at birth in pedigree herds or their birthdates fabricated for generations, either by mistake or deliberate, is naïve in the extreme.

Quite, equally naive is anyone who has continued to buy or use Jaggerbomb semen over the last year. I often wondered why they continued to retail his semen.

 

[puppet]

ever tried stand up?

[QUOTE="Northeastfarmer, post: 6241026, member:
Most pedigree bulls will be by AI so can’t be a cock up[/QUOTE]

But could be a balls up.

 

[shearerlad]

. Quite, equally naive is anyone who has continued to buy or use Jaggerbomb semen over the last year. I often wondered why they continued to retail his semen.

I agree with you for pedigree use but for a commercial suckler herd I would be more than willing to use straws if a guarantee that the cross progeny can enter the food chain

 

[egbert]

How could you have two freemartins? Surely no more than one heifer can be twin to a bull?

I see, even so, that you couldn't be sure which one was the freemartin.

You're right....2 cows, 3 calves. I bull calf, 2 heifer calves.
It could've been a pair of girls, or a boy and a girl. So its one or none.
(i hadn't given it any more thought than to note in the calving book to pay close attention at 'replacement selection' time).

To add to the potential for my confusion -already a murky area- one of the calves got fostered.....so it's not registered to the cow rearing it.

 

[neilo]

You're right....2 cows, 3 calves. I bull calf, 2 heifer calves.
It could've been a pair of girls, or a boy and a girl. So its one or none.
(i hadn't given it any more thought than to note in the calving book to pay close attention at 'replacement selection' time).

To add to the potential for my confusion -already a murky area- one of the calves got fostered.....so it's not registered to the cow rearing it.

Surely the fostered calf has to have the natural dam on it’s passport?

Can do a DNA test for freemartins, if one or both are potential replacements. It’s an extra cost (£35/test from memory), but cheaper than rearing them on to find them barren a year later.

 

[egbert]

Surely the fostered calf has to have the natural dam on it’s passport?

Can do a DNA test for freemartins, if one or both are potential replacements. It’s an extra cost (£35/test from memory), but cheaper than rearing them on to find them barren a year later.

Fostered calf is registered to dam believed to be her mother...but as I said, we were never sure.
(It happened on a busy coupla days, and none of them ever looked cold/miserable, so i just passed onward. It was 3 days before we realised there was an extra calf...I kept only seeing 2 single outfits.)

I'm not sure that I'll bother testing em.
I don't particularly want twinning in the sheep, ne'er mind the cows.

 

[Av Gorritt]

Chap up in the S. Lakes area had his milk records all cancelled allegedly for fiddling . Lot of people who'd bought stock from him were very highly p!ssed off with him about it . Time back now , but he never lived it down .

 

[Agrivator]

I agree with you for pedigree use but for a commercial suckler herd I would be more than willing to use straws if a guarantee that the cross progeny can enter the food chain

But the inclusion of the sire on the calf's passport is voluntary. So to be doubly sure, don't include it.

 

[M-J-G]

Once or twice a year we'll find cows newly calved next to each other, and cross mothering. It can easily happen that you're not sure which dam is which.
Had it with 2 young South Devon cows with 3 calves this spring. Which are the twins? We're not sure (they were all much of a muchness for size)....have i got one fremartin or two?.
Mind, no-one is going to be giving me thousands apiece for em, so it won't matter much beyond the obvious.

If you were going to register them with a society you'd just DNA them.

You also wouldn't have 2 freemartins out of 3 calves, unless there were triplets.

 

[egbert]

If you were going to register them with a society you'd just DNA them.

You also wouldn't have 2 freemartins out of 3 calves, unless there were triplets.

our herd is far older than the herdbook, but not pedigreed.

triplets! Dang, hadn't thought of that....
(look, you're right, I hadn't thought it through)