"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[som farmer]

The other big point is that when we think of "landscape function" and "eating as deep as possible" and things lie that, using that type of language, it suddenly opens new doors @exmoor dave

more "what I can do" than "I really shouldn't be doing this but OK"

and I particularly like looking for leading indicators vs lagging, that is what drove the U turn here

This same conversation would be wonderful to have with politicians, who have a fixation with lagging indicators like soil carbon

don't go there with politicians, you'd lose, and end up doubting yourself, they have zero interest, unless it might effect their chances of re-election.

 

[JohnGalway]

don't go there with politicians, you'd lose, and end up doubting yourself, they have zero interest, unless it might effect their chances of re-election.

Politicians steal your clothes. Most either break or outlaw by regulation any idea that threatens the status quo.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

don't go there with politicians, you'd lose, and end up doubting yourself, they have zero interest, unless it might effect their chances of re-election.

I have a couple of pet MPs who buck that trend. Without tooting my horn too loud they listen to me mainly because the conversation IS about leading indicators, and most of their cronies only deal with lagging indicators. These guys genuinely want to make a difference

 

[Kiwi Pete]

3 colours in one day

 

[JohnGalway]

Going on from the link @Farmer Roy put up regarding the 270 day recoveries, probably "the best" video on regenerative grazing I have seen

despite watching goodness knows how many videos promoting the alternative version, it's good to have the "eat ⅓" thing debunked properly and a good insight into critical thinking based on good old 'farm science'

well worth a peek

I'm watching this at the moment, I'm about an hour in, but I've been hijacked by a CAP argument

Does he address, having no back fence, the issue of stock going back and eating regrowth, overgrazing?

I'm aware of and like Zeitsmann, for my own farm my priority 1 I guess is building soil armour above and below ground as well as encouraging my pastures to be brave and grow more than a few mm in height as their habit is to rush to seed at low heights thanks to our mismanagement and subsequent overgrazing in the present and past.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I'm watching this at the moment, I'm about an hour in, but I've been hijacked by a CAP argument

Does he address, having no back fence, the issue of stock going back and eating regrowth, overgrazing?

I'm aware of and like Zeitsmann, for my own farm my priority 1 I guess is building soil armour above and below ground as well as encouraging my pastures to be brave and grow more than a few mm in height as their habit is to rush to seed at low heights thanks to our mismanagement and subsequent overgrazing in the present and past.

If there is something for them to go back to graze then they didn't "graze as deep as possible" when they were there.

Looking at the timeline in grass here on a 95-115 day round, they would need to walk a way back to find much regrowth and their bond is stronger than that; plus they know the feed is in front of them because they're looking at it - and content.

Last year we saw no real need to backfence at the higher end of the density range (around 3400 head/hectare) but as density came off them then they would do their own thing more and more.

I think you can leave plenty of litter, and expose the growing points to the light - without going too far either way. You don't want them to be eating the litter for a variety of reasons

 

[Woolless]

This is a really good video, helped me alot to understand high density long recovery and why it works Vs the 1/3- 1/3- 1/3 idea.
We dabbled with High density last late autumn, using a mob of inlamb ewes, on the lambing fields, so about 3mth or so recovery, those fields were fab after recovery.




After watching the above video, been thinking about this today while moving ewes and lambs...... ewes and lambs really aren't very compatible with a full high density system

But sheep are typically the best payer and best cash flow, at least how we currently farm, numbers can be made fluid relatively easy, unlike cattle in a TB area.
No real scope to increase cow numbers without shed investment- out wintering via bale grazing probably going to be unacceptable to landlords,
Taking in other peoples cattle for grazing season highly risky in a TB area, also technically sub letting so abit of a no-no, esp on our main tenancy.

It's certainly a cunumdrum trying to work a plan out, we can do HD grazing at times of the year using the cattle we have and dry/ in lamb ewes, maybe that's got to be a good as it gets....... I fear it's going to feel like we undo any gains made in the autumn, by the following (set stocked) lambing period

Yes, good point about the sheep. I had 10 nice acres set aside for cows and calves this spring but of course the ewes ended up having it...

I am wondering if it would be best to found grazing for the sheep away from home and push up cattle numbers and intensify grazing practice to improve my ground. There was also this article in FG which I saw a a possible way to combine the two to best advantage. Can't remember if I've posted on here previously:

Leader-follower grazing lifts upland farm finances

Precision grassland management and leader-follower grazing have turned the financial fortunes of a Scottish upland farm. Ann Hardy reports.

www.fginsight.com

 

[Samcowman]

If there is something for them to go back to graze then they didn't "graze as deep as possible" when they were there.

Looking at the timeline in grass here on a 95-115 day round, they would need to walk a way back to find much regrowth and their bond is stronger than that; plus they know the feed is in front of them because they're looking at it - and content.
View attachment 963490
Last year we saw no real need to backfence at the higher end of the density range (around 3400 head/hectare) but as density came off them then they would do their own thing more and more.

Would agree there. The group I’m total grazing with this year as an experiment definitely aren’t grazing back over. Ideally I would be backfencing but due to water I’m not. Working well and getting slightly more grazing/hectare on this long first round as I did on the first 2 rounds by this time last year.

 

[JohnGalway]

If there is something for them to go back to graze then they didn't "graze as deep as possible" when they were there.

Looking at the timeline in grass here on a 95-115 day round, they would need to walk a way back to find much regrowth and their bond is stronger than that; plus they know the feed is in front of them because they're looking at it - and content.
View attachment 963490
Last year we saw no real need to backfence at the higher end of the density range (around 3400 head/hectare) but as density came off them then they would do their own thing more and more.View attachment 963497
I think you can leave plenty of litter, and expose the growing points to the light - without going too far either way. You don't want them to be eating the litter for a variety of reasons

On another point, I'm looking for info rather than criticising, about parasites that I didn't hear come up in the video. That grazing taller grass leads to a lesser infestation of parasites as the stock aren't grazing close to the ground. It would have been good to hear his views on that.

 

[som farmer]

Would agree there. The group I’m total grazing with this year as an experiment definitely aren’t grazing back over. Ideally I would be backfencing but due to water I’m not. Working well and getting slightly more grazing/hectare on this long first round as I did on the first 2 rounds by this time last year.

we have not been so good back fencing, just to reduce the tread pressure from the cows, trying to preserve the grass, similarly we have split day and night paddocks, instead of staying in 1 paddock, night and day, actually worked quite well, nothing is seriously trodden, hopefully the weather will allow us to get back to normal. Certainly hasn't affected grass growth, that's in overdrive.
Bad day today, effluent tank, due this morning, arrived this after noon, different spec to the drawings, 8 m long, 2 metres diameter, bugger to off load and place in position, 2 hrs wasted, cows went through elec fence, then proper fence into neighbours s barley, 1 hour zoom meeting, then tonight we have to box some cattle back, and a milk fever, up to 2.00pm, everything going quite well, other than tank not arriving, with digger on site. All done now though.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

we have not been so good back fencing, just to reduce the tread pressure from the cows, trying to preserve the grass, similarly we have split day and night paddocks, instead of staying in 1 paddock, night and day, actually worked quite well, nothing is seriously trodden, hopefully the weather will allow us to get back to normal. Certainly hasn't affected grass growth, that's in overdrive.
Bad day today, effluent tank, due this morning, arrived this after noon, different spec to the drawings, 8 m long, 2 metres diameter, bugger to off load and place in position, 2 hrs wasted, cows went through elec fence, then proper fence into neighbours s barley, 1 hour zoom meeting, then tonight we have to box some cattle back, and a milk fever, up to 2.00pm, everything going quite well, other than tank not arriving, with digger on site. All done now though.

We all have days like those in farming. It's what drives our sunny disposition.

 

[Samcowman]

we have not been so good back fencing, just to reduce the tread pressure from the cows, trying to preserve the grass, similarly we have split day and night paddocks, instead of staying in 1 paddock, night and day, actually worked quite well, nothing is seriously trodden, hopefully the weather will allow us to get back to normal. Certainly hasn't affected grass growth, that's in overdrive.
Bad day today, effluent tank, due this morning, arrived this after noon, different spec to the drawings, 8 m long, 2 metres diameter, bugger to off load and place in position, 2 hrs wasted, cows went through elec fence, then proper fence into neighbours s barley, 1 hour zoom meeting, then tonight we have to box some cattle back, and a milk fever, up to 2.00pm, everything going quite well, other than tank not arriving, with digger on site. All done now though.

Twice a day shifts would be even better here and did do it for 5 days when they were handy and left the paddock more level than daily.
One field I made a bit of a mess of, got caught out by the amount of rain on Sunday. I will probably spray off and put a summer fodder crop in and reseed in the autumn. This field hasn’t recovered from being half killed in 2018? When it was dry so will be a benefit in the end taking this chance.

 

[som farmer]

nature is often better than we think, and not sure we give it enough time to sort things out, our fields look quite 'puggled', esp under hedges, looks bad, but they will recover quite well, have faith. l think by giving the cows more room, has worked well, 80/90 ton of cows, concentrated into 4 small feet, is a lot of weight, and perhaps the longer grass has helped to protect the sward as well. This weather has been the pits, stock have hated it, but for us, it was much needed, cows have kept milking quite well, and we will make loads of silage, a real luxury, as we cut our silage leys early, they are just about at ideal stage, the pp we have now got, looks spot on, nothing really heading at all, just bulking up. Even if we have a dry summer, we will get enough of 'back end' growth, to make certain we have enough.
They get two shifts a day, that's the easy bit, they come in twice a day for milking ! Just this year, we haven't fed 1 paddock, night and day, as we normally would, it is suprising how a short 'break' has given time for the ground to absorb the water.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

On another point, I'm looking for info rather than criticising, about parasites that I didn't hear come up in the video. That grazing taller grass leads to a lesser infestation of parasites as the stock aren't grazing close to the ground. It would have been good to hear his views on that.

The lower frequency grazing will have a lot to do with breaking the cycle, TBH parasite burdens are a symptom of too-frequent grazing and human intervention combined.
Remove those and I dare say you remove the levels of larvae to the point that it becomes a non-issue

This doesn't really suit the team with all the rugby players in it either

 

[JohnGalway]

The lower frequency grazing will have a lot to do with breaking the cycle, TBH parasite burdens are a symptom of too-frequent grazing and human intervention combined.
Remove those and I dare say you remove the levels of larvae to the point that it becomes a non-issue

This doesn't really suit the team with all the rugby players in it either

All the rugby players?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yeah. We won't mention names, but the world tour guys, sell you a "cannot fail" grazing recipe as well as a bale unroller for when the recipe fails

I think their method has merit, sure, but ....

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Yeah. We won't mention names, but the world tour guys, sell you a "cannot fail" grazing recipe as well as a bale unroller for when the recipe fails

I think their method has merit, sure, but ....

As I said on Tuesday to the enquiry: Agriculture has been very profitable over the last 30 years, it's just that that profit has been sucked out by the inputs industry!

They've considered farming to be very profitable.......

 

[Treg]

As I said on Tuesday to the enquiry: Agriculture has been very profitable over the last 30 years, it's just that that profit has been sucked out by the inputs industry!

They've considered farming to be very profitable.......

I liked that analogy

 

[Treg]

All the rugby players?

We're part of a team, some one passes me the ball ( money ) then I pass it to someone else. It would be nice to just run around with the ball for abit but there's some big players out there on the field so I pass the ball quickly

 

[Treg]

We're part of a team, some one passes me the ball ( money ) then I pass it to someone else. It would be nice to just run around with the ball for abit but there's some big players out there on the field so I pass the ball quickly

Saying that I'm Organic so a bit like a Substitute, I get to play with the ball on the side lines but rarely get in the real game