"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Henarar]

The retailers and industry work hard to tell customers what they want.

When I started selling rosé veal, it was really difficult as customers wanted 'white' meat, as this is considered a sign of quality. This is sales pitch used by industry, retail and butchers.
Of course we know this is not the case, but in order to industrialise the process and produce ever more cheaply the animals were held inside in cramped individual pens away from grass and fed milk powder by machine.

To appreciate the scale of this one must appreciate that the EUROP price grid takes this into account with a scale of 1-5 for the meat colour. 1 being white and 5 being deep red.
When my animals are too darK (3) I lose 1€/kg carcass.

This led to some unscrupulous activities in order to whiten the meat. Feeding the animals bleach, draining blood etc.

Even now I am supposed to prevent my veal calves having access to grass in order to meat the demands of the cooperative. (I have refused, and for the moment they are still taking my animals).

So when I wanted to direct sell rosé veal, I had to convince my potential clients that my product wasn't utter shite. Which I did, mostly by being transparent about how the animals are raised.




Which is why direct selling is so useful. Price maker, not price taker.

yep as soon as you go down the road to producing it all to one speck they will penalise anything that deviates from that speck and once nothing is deviating they tighten the speck or find other things to penalise for

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

you can spend on allsorts of inputs, fodder, concentrates, fert, seeds, metal, equipment, fuel all of which may well be degenerative somewhere but which if any is holistically best to do depends on how big a picture you want to look at

In genuinely holistic management that is stated in your holistic context. Yours doesn't have to be the same as mine or anyone else's. So long as you have thought about it and apply it when weighing your decisions it is still holistic management.

The real debate that you are getting at is how big a "whole" does your context have to encompass to be called "holistic".

 

[som farmer]

The retailers and industry work hard to tell customers what they want.

When I started selling rosé veal, it was really difficult as customers wanted 'white' meat, as this is considered a sign of quality. This is sales pitch used by industry, retail and butchers.
Of course we know this is not the case, but in order to industrialise the process and produce ever more cheaply the animals were held inside in cramped individual pens away from grass and fed milk powder by machine.

To appreciate the scale of this one must appreciate that the EUROP price grid takes this into account with a scale of 1-5 for the meat colour. 1 being white and 5 being deep red.
When my animals are too darK (3) I lose 1€/kg carcass.

This led to some unscrupulous activities in order to whiten the meat. Feeding the animals bleach, draining blood etc.

Even now I am supposed to prevent my veal calves having access to grass in order to meat the demands of the cooperative. (I have refused, and for the moment they are still taking my animals).

So when I wanted to direct sell rosé veal, I had to convince my potential clients that my product wasn't utter shite. Which I did, mostly by being transparent about how the animals are raised.




Which is why direct selling is so useful. Price maker, not price taker.

totally agree, but the main outlet is s/mkt, it is very limited in the direct, or small shop line.
Our main product is bulk standard commodity, albeit of high quality, and, unfortunately that price, is set by others, not us. And they use any means to keep that low, including imported product. There is nothing honourable in that business, it's buy as cheap as possible, sell as dear as possible, and hard luck to anyone that gets hammered by their prices, sod off if you don't like it, we will find another mug.

 

[Samcowman]

Lad around here, managed a farm, running sucklers, who were AA out of grass rat dairy cows, from next door, so he had 300 cows, all same size, 450 kg, all put to AA bulls, AI and natural, calving in a 60 day window, fattened all the hfrs, on grass, for a premium contract, steers, either store, or fat, depending on trade, all gone by 24 months, all on grass, with no housing. So basically 2x450kg =900, or 1 900kg cont cow.

I went on a farm walk there or somewhere very similar. MH? Was his name I think. Has moved on now from what I heard on the grapevine. Went there to look out the outwintering system.

 

[Johnny Whiteheads]

I went on a farm walk there or somewhere very similar. MH? Was his name I think. Has moved on now from what I heard on the grapevine. Went there to look out the outwintering system.

What was the outwintering system used? I buy all my Hay for winter mostly from semi retired people who "need" to clear off the fields. I do believe it is a Lot better kinder to the land overall than the land that produce concentrates which has extra transportation and processing energy costs also

 

[Kiwi Pete]

In genuinely holistic management that is stated in your holistic context. Yours doesn't have to be the same as mine or anyone else's. So long as you have thought about it and apply it when weighing your decisions it is still holistic management.

The real debate that you are getting at is how big a "whole" does your context have to encompass to be called "holistic".

I like to bring a bit of this into it ^^

eg if you struggle with controlling the specifications that buyers put in place, then there are ways to approach that problem.
There are also ways to moan about them, and change nothing, but that's too hard for me!

Going back to the levels of change thing, you can either look for efficiencies (ways to produce more stuff in spec) or substitutions (change to buyers with more suitable specs) or indeed redesign away from producing to spec, which is what we did.

That's same as making a business droughtproof or more viable - it's all up to the individual. We redesigned away from input/output agriculture, but it's still nice to give the neighbour $10k and buy in some fertility - the obvious trap there is that this occasional purchase becomes part of the design.

That's also why we graze our grass, instead of leaving ⅔ for the gazelles - we want to be more droughtproof, as it takes more time for more rain to come, we just give it more time.

Grazing speed is in that circle of concern, making it rain is not.

 

[som farmer]

What was the outwintering system used? I buy all my Hay for winter mostly from semi retired people who "need" to clear off the fields. I do believe it is a Lot better kinder to the land overall than the land that produce concentrates which has extra transportation and processing energy costs also

strict paddock grazing, bale anything to far ahead, and stubble turnips/kale for overwintering. and a very tight calving block, he had very good advice, and AA hfr calves, from a very switched on spring grazer, next door. He has moved on, farm owner, a banker, wanted more profit, he now has less.
We will outwinter the spring calvers, when dry, and bullers, on redstart forage rape, which will go in, as soon as barley is off, hay or 2nd quality silage bales, to buffer it. Very cheap, and cattle are healthy too, plus they spread their own sh1t.

 

[som farmer]

a before and after in a chicory/plantain/clover with 'dry' prg, this will be 5th grazing. There are some lovely lush docks in there they, go pretty well ! The chicory is bolting fairly quickly now, but they don't leave much, other than the stem, behind them. We are finding it hard to balance longer residuals, with a longer rotation, and grass quality. They are not milking off that, as perhaps they should, it looks quality. The plantains, do not appear, at the same time as chicory, no idea if that is normal, or not, early spring, the plantains were predominant, the roles are now reversed.
This field has a lot of 'banks' in it, from medieval field systems, the cows always graze those banks, down to the roots, and always have done, there must be a reason, they are not large, so get the same treatment as the rest of the field, i would like to know why. When l started, and for years after, farming, this field had a very high rejection rate, other than those banks, we would mow behind the cows, and bale the crap, and dump it, l have gone well beyond that, they graze the lot now, took a long time, it's a scheduled monument, so cant plough, l dd, something l wasn't allowed to do, while dad was alive !

 

[Henarar]

View attachment 981178
I like to bring a bit of this into it ^^

eg if you struggle with controlling the specifications that buyers put in place, then there are ways to approach that problem.
There are also ways to moan about them, and change nothing, but that's too hard for me!

Going back to the levels of change thing, you can either look for efficiencies (ways to produce more stuff in spec) or substitutions (change to buyers with more suitable specs) or indeed redesign away from producing to spec, which is what we did.

That's same as making a business droughtproof or more viable - it's all up to the individual. We redesigned away from input/output agriculture, but it's still nice to give the neighbour $10k and buy in some fertility - the obvious trap there is that this occasional purchase becomes part of the design.

That's also why we graze our grass, instead of leaving ⅔ for the gazelles - we want to be more droughtproof, as it takes more time for more rain to come, we just give it more time.

Grazing speed is in that circle of concern, making it rain is not.

Thats the thing with what we have now there is a buyer for every spec, or at least I didn't see anything unsold

 

[som farmer]

Thats the thing with what we have now there is a buyer for every spec, or at least I didn't see anything unsold

that is a big difference between ag, and manufacturing, whatever we take to mkt, usually sells, at a price, manufacturers, do not have that 'comfort'.
Just because an animal sells, it doesn't mean that is a 'proper' price, it is a price, someone will pay for that animal. You are looking at it from the farming point of view, that finishes at point of sale, some will be bought as stores, to fatten. Your/our point of sale, moves that animal, into a completely different business, the meat trade, which is broadly distrusted by farmers, with good reason. It is then up to that trade, to satisfy it's customers, a high % being s/mkt, or mass catering, both will have different spec's. S/mkts require standard/uniform size packs, of whatever, to put on shelves, based on what their research, has shown the housewife want's/buys. Catering/pies etc, their spec is lean/cheap. They require a different spec carcass, for both trades. We would want to sell, to s/mkt spec, they are the biggest buyers, and buy huge numbers, this is where uniformity comes in, they need, x number of carcasses, each week, and they will order x number, of each grade, they need, as the buyer, said to me, he would have to ring several different abattoirs to get the right amount, of carcasses, for each grade, or, he could ring 1 importer, to get his full requirement, lambs are a classic example, you can buy a ship load of NZ same spec lambs, or ring several abattoirs, to get the same.
It is that lack, of uniformity, that increases the cost, of sourcing from different places, transport, time, gen hassle, stores that wont reach top spec, fetch less money to fatten on, and when killed. While anybody may well ridicule those facts, that is what happens, once the animal leaves you, it enters a very cutthroat, and dodgy world, of the meat 'trade'. Though you may think the £difference is small, per head, times the total numbers killed, it adds up to massive amounts. And we all know, a pen of stores, that are evenly sized, will always make more money.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

S/mkts require standard/uniform size packs, of whatever, to put on shelves, based on what their research, has shown the housewife want's/buys.

I would argue that it is not based on what the housewife wants at all. It is based on what's most profitable for the supermarket. They have persuaded many housewives that they want exactly the same but, in reality, most just choose from the very limited range the supermarket chooses to offer.

I do all our grocery shopping. I do not want to buy packs of 2 or 4 chicken breasts of the standard size, as an example. I want to be offered a range of breasts in varying sizes and choose what suits me for the dishes I am coocking that week. The supermaket does not offer this because it doesn't fit their business model. A small butcher, however, can do. As can a farm selling direct.

 

[Henarar]

I do understand what you are saying Som farmer but I think it is the very last thing we should do, short term gain maybe, get the best price for a couple years then when all the other outlets that are not so fussy about size or whatever have gone they will turn the screws.
all these things without fail are always thin end of the wedge

 

[Treg]

I do understand what you are saying Som farmer but I think it is the very last thing we should do, short term gain maybe, get the best price for a couple years then when all the other outlets that are not so fussy about size or whatever have gone they will turn the screws.
all these things without fail are always thin end of the wedge

I agree, it should be all about what it tastes like & where it's come from, who wants bland all the same thing stuff.

 

[Henarar]

I agree, it should be all about what it tastes like & where it's come from, who wants bland all the same thing stuff.

Well some folk are happy with sludge made in a factory as they think they are saving the world but feck that

 

[Samcowman]

I agree, it should be all about what it tastes like & where it's come from, who wants bland all the same thing stuff.

In general do the public really care, they have been trained over the years to put heaps of flavouring on the meat. How many people will have steak without a heap of sauce on? Could be cynical and say trained by big business that the meat needs stuff on it so they can upsell sauces to go with it.

 

[Treg]

In general do the public really care, they have been trained over the years to put heaps of flavouring on the meat. How many people will have steak without a heap of sauce on? Could be cynical and say trained by big business that the meat needs stuff on it so they can upsell sauces to go with it.

Not sure whether things have changed abit the last 18 months, people have got back into food and where it comes from .
Local Tesco's is always selling out of Organic & Angus plenty of " normal " beef on the shelf , so I wonder whether people have chosen to " up grade " their weekly shop & whether they may not change back ?? Who knows?

 

[Samcowman]

Not sure whether things have changed abit the last 18 months, people have got back into food and where it comes from .
Local Tesco's is always selling out of Organic & Angus plenty of " normal " beef on the shelf , so I wonder whether people have chosen to " up grade " their weekly shop & whether they may not change back ?? Who knows?

Not sure. Demand has been fairly strong for beef all the way through. Whether we like it or not though a massive proportion of retail beef if sold through supermarkets which means the meat industry needs to meet their demands of carcass spec. There’s only so much you can sell locally. Even then people only want a certain size steak and joint generally, so you are still be guided by the supermarkets then.

 

[som farmer]

while we all know what is the best food, we are a minority, and all those who agree with us, are an extremely low % of the total market. The biggest change in food consumption during lockdown, was a rather large drop in vegan products, lovely. For the vast majority, their product goes into the bulk market, that market is monitored daily, by the s/mkts, they know what sells, what weights, what appearance etc, it is them that dictate price/spec etc. Catering, is all about price, and how cheap they can get it.
The point l was trying to get at, if we, as farmers, wish to maximise price, we need to jump through the required hoops, to get there. There is, of course, the option not to. The UK beef farming, consists of multiple breeds and x's, and you only have to go to a market, to see that, all shapes, sizes and breeds, some poor beggar, has to transform that, to a customers spec, not easy.
Compare that, to many of the worlds biggest producers, they turn out same spec cattle, by the 1,000's which actually reduces costs, all the way through the chain, from birth to plate. With brexit, and all the new trade deals done, we will have to compete with them, food sourcing is cutthroat.
However, getting to a 'standard' animal, could fit in extremely well, with regen farming, you could have matched breeding cows, follow g judy, 450/500 kg, or more, producing a very tight block, of 'standard' calves, which all grow, at the same weight gain, all with the same nutritional needs. That would make grass management easier, it even simplifies the work. Going back to the lad, with 300 AAx grass rats, that is exactly what he was achieving, hfrs were all fattened on grass alone, virtually all hitting his contract spec, which paid a bonus for doing so, his steers, were either fattened off grass, or sold as stores, depending on the market, isn't that both carbon friendly, and land use friendly ? Very little fert used, no concentrates, everything on grass, or rape/turnips, and all gone by 24 months. The tidy profit, had to be split 3 ways, which made each 1/3 to 'small' for those receiving it, non farmers, and they blamed him for that. He is now building up another herd, the same principles applied, in the midlands.
l don't disagree with any of the comments made, but the hard facts are, we sell mainly into a commodity market, and have been sold out, for the requirement of cheap food, by the guv. But we must realise that when that animal, leaves our farm, that is the end of our influence, and it goes into a very nasty, probably corrupt, and certainly cutthroat, world of the meat industry. To have any chance of getting a premium price, we have to produce, what they want, and they will pay extra.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Nice bull calf this morning. By lunchtime, I couldn't find him anywhere.... til I followed Mum's gaze.

(Mum had that white prem one last year, then took it away up the paddock in a blizzard)

bit reluctant to intervene here, but ended up pushing him back down to the "family"

Got home tonight, and he's gone-burgers again, this time in the opposite corner of the paddock (look at the cow, she knows where)

I'd hazard a guess that Lexi will calve by midnight

and Lily tomorrow

meanwhile the sheep enterprise is hitting its straps

 

[Henarar]

Compare that, to many of the worlds biggest producers, they turn out same spec cattle, by the 1,000's which actually reduces costs, all the way through the chain, from birth to plate.

And are the FARMERS in that system better off ?