"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[holwellcourtfarm]

Or, we could just slow down and slow down some more not really used to thinking in this direction TBH

Take a "wedge" out of the rotation?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Either way will give good impact and either way will grow litter. I'm hesitant to defer much this early in the season as heading date is really only a lunar month from now, after this date would make more sense?

 

[Samcowman]

Good problem to have Pete. As long as you don’t make the same mistake I did this year and stay slow but get round it all and even though everything was definitely recovered and well seeded out.
What I should have done was skipped the last couple of paddocks and gone back to the beginning and saved some stockpile or silaged more.
More mouths would be a good option if available

 

[som farmer]

Just looked it up in Cotswold Seeds £££££. Westerwolds looks much cheaper but probably wouldn’t get the bulk but maybe higher quality. I am looking at options for planting next autumn for some guaranteed silage cut the next spring. May just go for Italian and red. For grazing after as well.

IRG gives you a higher quality, and can be cheaper than w/wold, w/wolds will give a good bulk, and we have sown 9 acres, to cut pre maize -old stock and very cheap
But hybrid rye, is different to the old humbolt type forage rye, it's been developed for the digester mkt, between 2 crops of maize, and is meant to be better feed value, the vetch should push up protien.
For us, timing issues, it's simply to tight to get the best value from each, digesters different market. Last year, we planted kale after taking the rye at a 'whole crop' stage, that will be our preferred future route, worked very well. But, l will post analysis, whatever it is, as soon as we can get it !

 

[som farmer]

Either way will give good impact and either way will grow litter. I'm hesitant to defer much this early in the season as heading date is really only a lunar month from now, after this date would make more sense?

my thinking is to look at the quality of grass you require, your bullers would benefit from a 'flush' pre-service, after, not so necessary. We aimed for a 30/35 day round, which was wrong, quality deuterated, and it bolted away. So we think, matching grass quality, to meet stock needs, is, for us, better than a 'fixed' time, length of round will vary, as grass growth alters, as the season progresses, in reality, it's just following the grass growth chart, and hope herbs and clover, come in as grass slows. This is where the plate metre could help, it tells you amount and rate, but not quite for our grazing methods- it would probably flip and break. But, so much of farming, is instinct, you know what's right, or wrong, there have to be compromises along the way, as growth is dictated by weather.

 

[som farmer]

Just looked it up in Cotswold Seeds £££££. Westerwolds looks much cheaper but probably wouldn’t get the bulk but maybe higher quality. I am looking at options for planting next autumn for some guaranteed silage cut the next spring. May just go for Italian and red. For grazing after as well.

just thinking on, this 18 acre field, has yielded 32/ton/ac est yield, and has received 50kg/ac N, a good dosing of shite, and DAP. Grass would have more fert, for less total yield, something that is rapidly looking better.
Those 18 ac have given us approx 500ton, in the pit, nearly 1third of our requirement, haven't quite looked at it, from that angle.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

my thinking is to look at the quality of grass you require, your bullers would benefit from a 'flush' pre-service, after, not so necessary. We aimed for a 30/35 day round, which was wrong, quality deuterated, and it bolted away. So we think, matching grass quality, to meet stock needs, is, for us, better than a 'fixed' time, length of round will vary, as grass growth alters, as the season progresses, in reality, it's just following the grass growth chart, and hope herbs and clover, come in as grass slows. This is where the plate metre could help, it tells you amount and rate, but not quite for our grazing methods- it would probably flip and break. But, so much of farming, is instinct, you know what's right, or wrong, there have to be compromises along the way, as growth is dictated by weather.

Good call.

I'm beginning to discover that I have a limit in my head that says "more grass = less quality" and one that says "less grass = more quality" but maybe there's a possibility that we can have more high-quality grass

that's where I'm stuck, most of what we are wanting to do is underpinned or related to, "what we have seen in the past" by doing what we did.... but what if we can do something new?

"What if we can shove a big wedge of high quality nutrition around in front of a ravenous mob of little cattle" is really quite exciting because alot of what made that hard has now been removed (with the new framework, coupled to an evolving mindset/skillset)

notice that that's where I am stuck, maybe the grass is only stuck there because I am?
(It doesn't "know", it just responds to what I think I know, and what we do with the grazing)

 

[farmgineer]

Good problem to have Pete. As long as you don’t make the same mistake I did this year and stay slow but get round it all and even though everything was definitely recovered and well seeded out.
What I should have done was skipped the last couple of paddocks and gone back to the beginning and saved some stockpile or silaged more.
More mouths would be a good option if available

I definitely did this too

 

[Samcowman]

I definitely did this too

I look at it as a free reseed (I hope) and a learning experience. A tool that can be used in certain situations to increase productivity long term but would definitely cost productivity over a single season.

 

[som farmer]

Good call.

I'm beginning to discover that I have a limit in my head that says "more grass = less quality" and one that says "less grass = more quality" but maybe there's a possibility that we can have more high-quality grass

that's where I'm stuck, most of what we are wanting to do is underpinned or related to, "what we have seen in the past" by doing what we did.... but what if we can do something new?

"What if we can shove a big wedge of high quality nutrition around in front of a ravenous mob of little cattle" is really quite exciting because alot of what made that hard has now been removed (with the new framework, coupled to an evolving mindset/skillset)

notice that that's where I am stuck, maybe the grass is only stuck there because I am?
(It doesn't "know", it just responds to what I think I know, and what we do with the grazing)

one absolute certainty with farming, is we never stop learning, and we don't know it all.
By following a strict regime, you 'fail', simply because every season is different, so what happened last year, wont be guaranteed for this, so if you can match grass growth to stock needs, you are basically mimicking nature, if you need quality spring grass, like we do ! It doesn't really matter, if your round is only 14 days, at max grass growth, you match your stock to it, you are not 'killing' your grass, as you are following it's natural cycle. Where you can bugger it up, is by forcing the growth, with heavy applications of N, sensible amounts help, because you are not allowing the plant to strengthen it's root system, after the winter rest, that has depleted those reserves, by surviving the winter. Getting tongue tied on this !
Basically, if you look after the plant, it will hopefully look after you. So much of modern farming is defined by yield, whether cows corn or sheep, and the answer has been, in many cases, chucking loads of fert on, all that does is increase leaf growth, not a lot of root growth, but it is that root system, that is able to use the natural fertility in the soil.
So, if we concentrate on increasing soil fertility, it lessens the need for fert, but soil fertility has been side lined, because of the easy root of applying fert. That policy is breaking down, lighter soils are depleted all ready. Organic farming looks to increase soil fertility, clovers, green manure etc, where perhaps they go wrong, is too much diesel, and only a 'short' term fix, for the following crop.
We are moving into an age where climate change, is today's buzz word, and carbon sequestration is the current 'emergency'. We know farming can help, but perhaps not how we actually farm, it's all short term measures, grass wise, we need productive swards, that stay down for a much longer period, if you take PRG as an example, a 4 year ley, you fertilise, but that feeds leaf growth only, and the plant dies off, would that plant last longer, if it had an extensive root system, rather than the small one, we expect it to last with ?
getting to waffly now, but hope you can follow my logic, the other big if, finances.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

We have been conned into focusing far to much on output, as commented on before in this thread.

Reseeding is bloody expensive. A long term ley or a productive permanent pasture might produce a little less but the cost per unit output can be way higher and less work to do to boot.

Likewise some folk have found that OAD milking has taken enough cost out of the system, partly by reducing the pressure on the cows themselves, to actually leave more profit as well as a more resilient system.

It is NOT our job, as farmers, to worry about producing enough for national or global needs.

 

[som farmer]

just thinking on, this 18 acre field, has yielded 32/ton/ac est yield, and has received 50kg/ac N, a good dosing of shite, and DAP. Grass would have more fert, for less total yield, something that is rapidly looking better.
Those 18 ac have given us approx 500ton, in the pit, nearly 1third of our requirement, haven't quite looked at it, from that angle.

and, thinking further, only 2 cuts, whereas with grass 4? a further big saving.

 

[Fenwick]

one absolute certainty with farming, is we never stop learning, and we don't know it all.
By following a strict regime, you 'fail', simply because every season is different, so what happened last year, wont be guaranteed for this, so if you can match grass growth to stock needs, you are basically mimicking nature, if you need quality spring grass, like we do ! It doesn't really matter, if your round is only 14 days, at max grass growth, you match your stock to it, you are not 'killing' your grass, as you are following it's natural cycle. Where you can bugger it up, is by forcing the growth, with heavy applications of N, sensible amounts help, because you are not allowing the plant to strengthen it's root system, after the winter rest, that has depleted those reserves, by surviving the winter. Getting tongue tied on this !
Basically, if you look after the plant, it will hopefully look after you. So much of modern farming is defined by yield, whether cows corn or sheep, and the answer has been, in many cases, chucking loads of fert on, all that does is increase leaf growth, not a lot of root growth, but it is that root system, that is able to use the natural fertility in the soil.
So, if we concentrate on increasing soil fertility, it lessens the need for fert, but soil fertility has been side lined, because of the easy root of applying fert. That policy is breaking down, lighter soils are depleted all ready. Organic farming looks to increase soil fertility, clovers, green manure etc, where perhaps they go wrong, is too much diesel, and only a 'short' term fix, for the following crop.
We are moving into an age where climate change, is today's buzz word, and carbon sequestration is the current 'emergency'. We know farming can help, but perhaps not how we actually farm, it's all short term measures, grass wise, we need productive swards, that stay down for a much longer period, if you take PRG as an example, a 4 year ley, you fertilise, but that feeds leaf growth only, and the plant dies off, would that plant last longer, if it had an extensive root system, rather than the small one, we expect it to last with ?
getting to waffly now, but hope you can follow my logic, the other big if, finances.

Completely agree about the roots. To easy to forget about the bits we dont see.

As for the need of art. N. i'm not so sure, haven't had any for more than a couple of decades here.

Cows (this morning).

Heifers (last week).

Running similar stocking rates as the conventional boys over the farm as a whole and using far, far less diesel.

 

[som farmer]

We have been conned into focusing far to much on output, as commented on before in this thread.

Reseeding is bloody expensive. A long term ley or a productive permanent pasture might produce a little less but the cost per unit output can be way higher and less work to do to boot.

Likewise some folk have found that OAD milking has taken enough cost out of the system, partly by reducing the pressure on the cows themselves, to actually leave more profit as well as a more resilient system.

It is NOT our job, as farmers, to worry about producing enough for national or global needs.

l love the NOT
but we will be forced down the 'climate change' route, by the 'enlightened'
perhaps we need to enlight ourselves, because all we have been discussing, leads to a cheaper system of farming, but not, perhaps, less profitable.
following that last point, could we say many have been seriously conned, by those that wish to live of our backs.
could it even mean, that what we sell, and complain about price, that price is correct, but it is the intensive way we farm, that makes it look so bad ?
into dangerous territory with that point, better dig out the tin helmet.

 

[som farmer]

Completely agree about the roots. To easy to forget about the bits we dont see.

As for the need of art. N. i'm not so sure, haven't had any for more than a couple of decades here.

Cows (this morning).

Heifers (last week).

Running similar stocking rates as the conventional boys over the farm as a whole and using far, far less diesel.

you might be enlightened.
but there are loads of farmers, that have a serious love affair with fert, looking at the price of fert, l suspect a large rise in divorce cases, due to the price.
but that fert, has been peddled to us for decades, our main stream farming has been built around 'heavy' fert use, we have always been taught that it is the correct way to farm.
while l feel no need to feed the world, l can't help thinking that those, who rave against 'intensive farming', and the methods used, to produce cheap food, may change their mind, when it is no longer cheap !

 

[Kiwi Pete]

We have been conned into focusing far to much on output, as commented on before in this thread.

Reseeding is bloody expensive. A long term ley or a productive permanent pasture might produce a little less but the cost per unit output can be way higher and less work to do to boot.

Likewise some folk have found that OAD milking has taken enough cost out of the system, partly by reducing the pressure on the cows themselves, to actually leave more profit as well as a more resilient system.

It is NOT our job, as farmers, to worry about producing enough for national or global needs.

Aaah, The Big Lie

it's quite spectacular to see just how it moulds a person into a particular mindset, how this same lie is used to justify almost any action (eg, I'll poison the land because the old pasture isn't able to keep up with the wife's credit cards, you know, it's a lot better if I do that than plough it up)

it's one little lie but farmers give it so much power that it becomes their measure of success, often how they bury things or avoid things (like those little noisy people in the house, who wouldn't be selfless enough to leave all that joy for the better half and go out on the tractor to help feeding the population

BUT what about the population you actually know, do the kids care that Dad is having yet another meeting with killing stuff and can't be there?

The fert rep's kids care, because it takes them on nice holidays, but what about yours? Or in lieu of kids, your other half, or the lads you have a pint with?

What I'm undertaking is more of a philosophical questioning of why I feel I should "do" much, in this case should I really try to keep the animals off some of the grass, or make them work hard, or am I able to let that ingrained desire "to improve" go and just have it improve?

I care about soil carbon, sure, and the animals... I guess what I'm trying to get sitting right in my head is that if I let things be, they'd find a pace. I want to find what that pace is....
I also know that, if I let them be, the stock probably wouldn't turn away from tall grass to go to whatever picture I have of "the right grass for them" because they have that knowledge that it is all good grass if you just had the last of the grass you had

the other thing waving at me from the back is that we have tons of grass and that I really need a more functional landscape more than I need more grass to raise more cows to give more milk for more people

ALL of this noise gets in the way of what I really want - a business that goes as well, or better, when I'm not listening to all the noise but trusting my own eyes

NOT basing what we do on what we know from last year, but from what we see right now and where we want to go....

 

[Treg]

Aaah, The Big Lie

it's quite spectacular to see just how it moulds a person into a particular mindset, how this same lie is used to justify almost any action (eg, I'll poison the land because the old pasture isn't able to keep up with the wife's credit cards, you know, it's a lot better if I do that than plough it up)

it's one little lie but farmers give it so much power that it becomes their measure of success, often how they bury things or avoid things (like those little noisy people in the house, who wouldn't be selfless enough to leave all that joy for the better half and go out on the tractor to help feeding the population

BUT what about the population you actually know, do the kids care that Dad is having yet another meeting with killing stuff and can't be there?

The fert rep's kids care, because it takes them on nice holidays, but what about yours? Or in lieu of kids, your other half, or the lads you have a pint with?

What I'm undertaking is more of a philosophical questioning of why I feel I should "do" much, in this case should I really try to keep the animals off some of the grass, or make them work hard, or am I able to let that ingrained desire "to improve" go and just have it improve?

I care about soil carbon, sure, and the animals... I guess what I'm trying to get sitting right in my head is that if I let things be, they'd find a pace. I want to find what that pace is....
I also know that, if I let them be, the stock probably wouldn't turn away from tall grass to go to whatever picture I have of "the right grass for them" because they have that knowledge that it is all good grass if you just had the last of the grass you had

the other thing waving at me from the back is that we have tons of grass and that I really need a more functional landscape more than I need more grass to raise more cows to give more milk for more people

ALL of this noise gets in the way of what I really want - a business that goes as well, or better, when I'm not listening to all the noise but trusting my own eyes

NOT basing what we do on what we know from last year, but from what we see right now and where we want to go....

Always difficult to go on your own path when others are so adamant theirs is right & when the majority are doing things differently, but do we really learn from the majority or do we learn from the few?

 

[Fenwick]

well, i fudged up total grazing this paddock.

It came out of sequence this summer while i was trying to keep up with the grass.

This means that it has had 60 days rest rather than the 100 days which it would normally have.

Went to see the cows who had empty bellies and lots of grass.

Actually took me a day to realise that it was due to the manure spots from the previous grazing (haven't had that all year).

So after feeling like a numpty after missing things so obvious I 've got them moving a bit quicker.

I'm might possibly maybe definitely perhaps lime it next year which will probably help (ph of 5.1 ).

Of course I could just give it the appropriate rest.

Anyone have any novel ideas as to getting things cycling quicker?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I want to learn from myself/ what I observe

it's the only true (meaningful?) way to approach a complex problem

I got stuck on the "manage what you can measure" bit for so long that it was really hard to unlearn that fixation, ie "how much grass have I got" because it shifted me away from a truth - I have no grass, the landscape has it all

but you are right in what you say, the leaders in most of the grazing space have a reliable recipe for what they want to do (breed lots of calves cheaply off pasture) which is kind of more and kind of better - but it really has no relation to what we do or want to do

I also don't want it to all look so good that people subscribe to my youtube or buy my books or come to my seminars,, what I want is a business that I can be outside of (doesn't need an expert)

 

[Treg]

I want to learn from myself/ what I observe

it's the only true (meaningful?) way to approach a complex problem

I got stuck on the "manage what you can measure" bit for so long that it was really hard to unlearn that fixation, ie "how much grass have I got" because it shifted me away from a truth - I have no grass, the landscape has it all

but you are right in what you say, the leaders in most of the grazing space have a reliable recipe for what they want to do (breed lots of calves cheaply off pasture) which is kind of more and kind of better - but it really has no relation to what we do or want to do

I also don't want it to all look so good that people subscribe to my youtube or buy my books or come to my seminars,, what I want is a business that I can be outside of (doesn't need an expert)

"Should be the best teacher " you ever had as we are more in tone with ourselves than anyone else ( we know our own desires and outcomes ) but takes more focus on yourself sometimes? Then there's the problem of getting blinkered.
Someone once said to me breeding cattle is 33% the mother, 33% the bull & 33% mother nature, running a farm / business is the same 33% the work we put in ,33% the landscape & 33% mother nature.