"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Cece]

I have a small dexter & Belted Galloway suckler herd at home. Small animals, but still get £800 for a finished animal at 22 months with no grain input & they are very hardy.

Always wondered how this cross would work. Hardy, somewhat native and Dexters have a resistance to some parasites?

We have a donkey and currently she's behind an electric fence chomping down old thistles that the cattle wouldn't even look at on the other side. The difference in the two sides is huge. Anyone here run a donkey with cattle to pick out those "weeds? I do know she's a liability around lambs with kicking but I'm starting to think if she moves with the cattle, weeds would be kind of controlled or is there some issues?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Those lambs are looking really good and fit and I’m not a sheep man.
How old are they now ? I let doesn’t feel that long since you were lambing your first lot?

They would have been born the first 3 weeks of September, I think we were all done by the 22nd, so between 5 and 8 weeks old now? About there.

Pretty happy with how they're doing TBH I know well I do everything fairly wrongly, as far as the sheep go... I should have some very lame and unhappy sheep and lambs but never seem to have a problem.

But then, it was about mid July that they were last in this paddock, so not having them going round and round on the same area helps (not grazing infected pasture is my idea of animal welfare best practice, without wanting to stir up that argument, much better and more sustainable than just "feed them" and then rely on drugs etc)

That was why when @Ysgythan asked if his system was holistic grazing or not, I couldn't honestly answer, for I don't know what his concerns are (although his system sounds good, and obviously works, it also depends what he's concerned about)

 

[Blaithin]

Always wondered how this cross would work. Hardy, somewhat native and Dexters have a resistance to some parasites?

We have a donkey and currently she's behind an electric fence chomping down old thistles that the cattle wouldn't even look at on the other side. The difference in the two sides is huge. Anyone here run a donkey with cattle to pick out those "weeds? I do know she's a liability around lambs with kicking but I'm starting to think if she moves with the cattle, weeds would be kind of controlled or is there some issues?

Can’t hurt to try.

I find any of my animals enjoyment of thistles is very seasonal. Usually after they’ve already gone to see everywhere because they’re just helpful like that. Also what the donkey is eating when sanctioned off with Hotwire could be completely different to what it enjoys when allowed free access with everything else.

The best (chemical free) animal fix to thistles is denser grazing to pressure them and place their mineral right in the middle of a thistle patch. Both will make them trample the thistles even if they don’t eat them. When said patch is flattened, move mineral on to next bit.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

A good bruising seems to make them a little more palatable too, funny how they will eat thistles and docks fine out of a silage bale

Hence when I had big patches of them I chain-harrowed them and then when the animals came in to graze they actually got into them a bit more (I didn't test it scientifically)

much more to grazing than just "feeding the cows"

 

[Treg]

How's everyone's stockpile of feed looking? Has it been a difficult year to achieve one?

Improving daily! Cow's are eating half the amount of silage they were last year & weather is good atm so their still out grazing & being topped up with silage.
Round baler probably won't have it's usual winters rest this year as planning a cut of silage in a couple of weeks & may zero graze some off land if forage gets tight .
In 96, when we moved to this farm we strip grazed the dairy cow's til Christmas, so I'm hoping for a winter like that one

 

[Henarar]

Amazing how much it varies in 2012 nearly all the cattle were house at the start of October and they stayed there for 7 months winter before last a fare few were out till December and back out again in April, I can just remember dad turning the dairy cows out one year in June after they had eaten everything we had and then some, he strip grazed one of our dryer fields and still absolutely buggered it and had to reseed it

As @Treg said fodder stocks are looking better every day now but who knows what the front end of next year will bring, that will be the decider for many

 

[Treg]

Amazing how much it varies in 2012 nearly all the cattle were house at the start of October and they stayed there for 7 months winter before last a fare few were out till December and back out again in April, I can just remember dad turning the dairy cows out one year in June after they had eaten everything we had and then some, he strip grazed one of our dryer fields and still absolutely buggered it and had to reseed it

As @Treg said fodder stocks are looking better every day now but who knows what the front end of next year will bring, that will be the decider for many

The sting is always in the tail

 

[Ysgythan]

That was why when @Ysgythan asked if his system was holistic grazing or not, I couldn't honestly answer, for I don't know what his concerns are (although his system sounds good, and obviously works, it also depends what he's concerned about)

I just found the parallels between holistic management and the way my Dad was taught to do things by his grandfather to be very interesting. If we are doing things holistically it must be by default though.

 

[Agrispeed]

I just found the parallels between holistic management and the way my Dad was taught to do things by his grandfather to be very interesting. If we are doing things holistically it must be by default though.

Reading old books, I came to the conclusion that the modern ag service industry pushed people away from holistic management and into quick fixes like fert and sprays. The guys farming just post war (1945-55) were arguably the pinnacle of holistic and sustainable agricultural practises, all we are doing now is re-learning and using technology to do the same thing.

 

[Ysgythan]

Reading old books, I came to the conclusion that the modern ag service industry pushed people away from holistic management and into quick fixes like fert and sprays. The guys farming just post war (1945-55) were arguably the pinnacle of holistic and sustainable agricultural practises, all we are doing now is re-learning and using technology to do the same thing.

Exactly. Ideas are cyclical.

 

[Ysgythan]

Mole ploughed permanent pasture to shallow ditches by the hedge, down hill. We do it this time of year to carry off surface water, push down the water table and plant roots. Every ewe we lamb goes out here within a day of lambing and there’s no point wishing it was drier then. We leave about 6’ between the runs and never roll the heave.

 

[Ysgythan]

Oh, and there’s no point doing it before hedge trimming.

 

[Henarar]

I just found the parallels between holistic management and the way my Dad was taught to do things by his grandfather to be very interesting. If we are doing things holistically it must be by default though.

there is nart new in farming

 

[dt995]

Mole ploughed permanent pasture to shallow ditches by the hedge, down hill. We do it this time of year to carry off surface water, push down the water table and plant roots. Every ewe we lamb goes out here within a day of lambing and there’s no point wishing it was drier then. We leave about 6’ between the runs and never roll the heave.

I was thinking of mole ploughing this year, but the fields have old drains in them and only vague maps.

If you do it every year I guess you find it productive?

 

[Blaithin]

What is mole ploughing?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I just found the parallels between holistic management and the way my Dad was taught to do things by his grandfather to be very interesting. If we are doing things holistically it must be by default though.

It's quite a natural way to do/see things, though, isn't it?
The old boys seemed to have time to think their way out of problems, and I don't believe it was by accident.
They had (as we have) basically a complete set of tools but possibly just a more balanced view of those tools?

Maybe "forum life" just brings out man's foibles (sorry ladies) but the main thing we seem to have been taught is that health comes from a shop, and that grazing is all about "gotta feed the animals".
And I disagree with that

 

[bitwrx]

Right then, thought exercise for people with more experience than me.

Say you had 40ac of grassland, as part of a rotation. The grass would be planted in autumn, and would need to be vacated by July two years later - so 22 mths under grass. There are also 3ac of permanent pasture and a 45' by 20' barn available.

In the UK what classes of livestock would work on this?

There's a long winter to get through with only 3ac and a small barn, so permanent stocking may be tricky. But you do get two good growing seasons of a fresh ley. And bugger loads of organic matter from the other part of the rotation (500 sows, farrowing outdoors, all progeny finished on site, mixture of straw and slurry). There are periods when the ground would currently need to be vacated for slurry spreading (although that could be negotiable, by exporting more of the slurry).

It currently has some ewes and lambs on in the spring, set stocked. They never keep up with the grass.

Part (most) of me thinks the best use would be to sell silage to the local dairy farms - make the most of the nutrients imported for the pigs. But i have a real hankering to be a grazier...

Just writing this down has given me some things to think about, but more heads are better than one.

 

[Ysgythan]

I was thinking of mole ploughing this year, but the fields have old drains in them and only vague maps.

If you do it every year I guess you find it productive?

There’s two fields it really suits. Another two would benefit, but there’s just too many stones. The rest of the fields get reseeded in rotation with deep rooting plants in the seed mix so we don’t bother with them.

 

[Ysgythan]

What is mole ploughing?

It’s like a subsoiler but with a bullet shape so it leaves a channel for the water, akin to a mole run.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What is mole ploughing?

A mole plough is like a subsoiler/ ripper leg but it has a "mole" or "plug" on the bottom - in the right conditions it leaves a nice smooth drain in the subsoil, so you can lead the moisture into a drain.

Pretty much the same idea as the Yeoman's / keyline system but with the opposite effect, instead of for moisture conservation the mole drain is to get rid of it... where the keyline system takes water across the contour, a mole drain system takes it downhill.

One of the caveats with either is the possibility of water flow causing erosion that you can't see, if improperly done, down here we call underground erosion an "underrunner" ie you don't realise there is nothing under the turf until a hole opens up.