Really I was using it as a example that change takes time, but as you say if a farm is part way down that route it will take less time or a abused farm may take longer.
"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..
- Thread starter Kiwi Pete
- Start date
I have a field I use as a sacrifice field over winter ( turn the cows out for a couple of hours while I feed up & bed down ), usually give it a good chain harrowing in the spring & overseed every few years & give it long recoveries through the summer.Not sure it's possible to be off topic on a holistic threadso a question for you guys already treading the path.
I lamb and calve outdoors. I have tended to keep both single scanned sheep, and cows, very tight during calving/ lambing. I see 2 advantages to this in reducing calving/ lambing issues from being over fat, but also as a means of conserving grass when it's often in short supply in April.
However I have seen this really abuses the pasture when done for several weeks. I posted in the cover crop thread that I intend to use it as a tool to try sowing a cover crop without spraying off, but that is 1 little field. How do others manage if they want to keep stock tight, either to conserve grass or to keep stock from getting over fat?
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Plants are pretty tough, when you look at most grazing parameters that people use for convenience then you'll soon be forgiven.Not sure it's possible to be off topic on a holistic thread
I lamb and calve outdoors. I have tended to keep both single scanned sheep, and cows, very tight during calving/ lambing. I see 2 advantages to this in reducing calving/ lambing issues from being over fat, but also as a means of conserving grass when it's often in short supply in April.
However I have seen this really abuses the pasture when done for several weeks. I posted in the cover crop thread that I intend to use it as a tool to try sowing a cover crop without spraying off, but that is 1 little field. How do others manage if they want to keep stock tight, either to conserve grass or to keep stock from getting over fat?
The common practice here is to "chew out the lambing paddocks early" so those areas are recovered (recovering?) to lamb in, and then stock are set stocked in those areas for up to 3 months, which is going to then mean those plants will not reach potential in that growing season.
So get into them, nail them, and just let the plants recover adequately - it doesn't mean shut the gate for 6 months, but just be gentle with it for a while, be regenerative and conservative, use backfencing etc to follow the principle of "short grazing periods"
I just used a cell principle this lambing, similar to what I'm doing now, and used 3 very short 2-wire fences (keep recycling them so there's always a next move ahead of them) and I liked to avoid 3 wires as they are too rigid, if you have sheep poking through then you should have got out and moved them sooner.
Next year, pick another field and repeat the process, the main things you'll do (by what you described) are simply change the proportions of what plant species your pastures contain, ie plants more tolerant of harder grazing, so not the end of the world.
You can soon mould it back to what you want.
Diversity (again)
is really helpful as the cattle will protect grass from the sheep ( )and the sheep will discourage cattle grazing (lanolin on the grass)
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- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Who would I contact to get hold of a copy?View attachment 779620
I just read this book. Its based on holistic management - it covers all the major points in 92 pages instead of 616. It is also written by people who farm in the NE USA, i.e my climate for a change
- Location
- Derbyshire
I am content that the bike won't fall over.
However, the rest of the team here are not so convinced . I really am having to tread a fine line of diplomacy at times. Especially when it comes to stocking pressure and residuals.
The difficulty for me is in getting the rest of the team to see the Whole.
Maybe I'm just crap at communicating the vision.
- Location
- Quebec, Canada
On ABE books( advanced book exchange)
- Location
- Derbyshire
The photo I posted a couple of pages ago was of our later calving cows. We've done this on the same patch for 3 years now, however this year we will reseed and earmark a different area for next year. Seems to work best only putting stock on there after mid March as the ground conditions are more forgiving for calving.Not sure it's possible to be off topic on a holistic thread
I lamb and calve outdoors. I have tended to keep both single scanned sheep, and cows, very tight during calving/ lambing. I see 2 advantages to this in reducing calving/ lambing issues from being over fat, but also as a means of conserving grass when it's often in short supply in April.
However I have seen this really abuses the pasture when done for several weeks. I posted in the cover crop thread that I intend to use it as a tool to try sowing a cover crop without spraying off, but that is 1 little field. How do others manage if they want to keep stock tight, either to conserve grass or to keep stock from getting over fat?
This year we probably won't do kale, just deferred grass and bales.
Been using a kiwitech micro trough for water. Pleased with it
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
The proof is in the pudding, joys of cows is the feedback you get.
Us drystock farmers don't get that same feedback flow so need our senses tuned, I suppose like a crop you only find out at harvest how well it went, then pay the bills and see what's left
if plenty, we did well, if not, it was the weather or the prices or some factor.
Show your whanau the video I put up before, it may help communicate the vision better than you can?
are you sure you would get trouble calving or lambing ? we don't tend to worry to much about the cows unless they haven't had a calf on for months most are not weaned till a couple months off calving, would rather calve them a bit fat than thinNot sure it's possible to be off topic on a holistic thread
I lamb and calve outdoors. I have tended to keep both single scanned sheep, and cows, very tight during calving/ lambing. I see 2 advantages to this in reducing calving/ lambing issues from being over fat, but also as a means of conserving grass when it's often in short supply in April.
However I have seen this really abuses the pasture when done for several weeks. I posted in the cover crop thread that I intend to use it as a tool to try sowing a cover crop without spraying off, but that is 1 little field. How do others manage if they want to keep stock tight, either to conserve grass or to keep stock from getting over fat?
how do those little troughs stay upright ?
- Location
- Derbyshire
- Location
- Devon
Pete's vid, and the video on "wasting grass" posted several pages back. Everyone knows "Grass grows grass" so it's not such difficult thing to argue subdivision and greater residuals are a good thing.
- Location
- Devon
I'm coming to think this too, (possibly excepting the ewe lambs) which leaves the idea of saving grass, which may less of an issue a few years into the planned grazing system.
The ewes in general are fatter this year than I've known I think (just on grass) with an odd few topping 100kg (I normally reckon on my ewes being 60- 70kg at tupping) so we'll see how we go.
Genetics have quite an affect on birthweight. How much of an affect I don't know but it does make a difference.
Choice of rams/bulls and type of ewes/cows will make a big difference as well obviously.
Choice of rams/bulls and type of ewes/cows will make a big difference as well obviously.
- Location
- Derbyshire
You are right about arguing the subdivision, but residuals is a different story. One of the ground rules that was drummed into us when we started the paddock grazing of cows was "grazed grass grows grass", then various consultants and discussion groups picked up on it an took it one step further to -
"Grazing grass hard grows grass"
It is this second ground rule that is the really difficult one to overcome when in a conventional grazing mindset. Especially when residuals and 'grass utilization' are often quoted as a benchmark for us to aspire to.
The trouble is trying to keep everyone else balancing on the bike too.
Sometimes I feel like we are a load of circus clowns!
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
If you're already making a good go of your farming it's a good time to experiment better ways. I graze pretty hard too but in a different sense, it's not a "take it all" mentalityYou are right about arguing the subdivision, but residuals is a different story. One of the ground rules that was drummed into us when we started the paddock grazing of cows was "grazed grass grows grass", then various consultants and discussion groups picked up on it an took it one step further to -
"Grazing grass hard grows grass"
It is this second ground rule that is the really difficult one to overcome when in a conventional grazing mindset. Especially when residuals and 'grass utilization' are often quoted as a benchmark for us to aspire to.
The trouble is trying to keep everyone else balancing on the bike too.
Sometimes I feel like we are a load of circus clowns!
- Location
- Devon
Those recovery time figures in the wasted grass vid just show that grazing grass hard is a misnomer in the sense of grazing tight.You are right about arguing the subdivision, but residuals is a different story. One of the ground rules that was drummed into us when we started the paddock grazing of cows was "grazed grass grows grass", then various consultants and discussion groups picked up on it an took it one step further to -
"Grazing grass hard grows grass"
It is this second ground rule that is the really difficult one to overcome when in a conventional grazing mindset. Especially when residuals and 'grass utilization' are often quoted as a benchmark for us to aspire to.
The trouble is trying to keep everyone else balancing on the bike too.
Sometimes I feel like we are a load of circus clowns!
You need to encourage them to think of "grazing hard" as high density for short time rather than grazing tight. I have been amazed at the effect of this even before discovering this thread when all grass wintering sheep for the last 4 or 5 years.
- Location
- Devon
Agree entirely and have already moved to easy lambing/ calving breeds/breeding.
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
Could you persuade them to agree to going right in hard on just one field for 3 or 4 years and see what it does (pete's >250,000 kgLwt/Ha and 3 or 4 moves a day)? If they saw the increased production for themselves (and the greater resistance to poaching and the improved infiltrating rate) they may be persuaded.You are right about arguing the subdivision, but residuals is a different story. One of the ground rules that was drummed into us when we started the paddock grazing of cows was "grazed grass grows grass", then various consultants and discussion groups picked up on it an took it one step further to -
"Grazing grass hard grows grass"
It is this second ground rule that is the really difficult one to overcome when in a conventional grazing mindset. Especially when residuals and 'grass utilization' are often quoted as a benchmark for us to aspire to.
The trouble is trying to keep everyone else balancing on the bike too.
Sometimes I feel like we are a load of circus clowns!