"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Henarar]

E

Exactly
That's why ground cover is SO important in our environment, whether you are arable or grazing.
Once we lose that groundcover, we are in all sorts of trouble . . .

how are things going re rain Roy ? any change

 

[GreenerGrass]

With the timing of my rotation some fields just seemed to be rested at a time when they went nuts, or had more annual grass species? Some of my future paddocks look 'better grazing' from an animal perspective, but hoping trampling this stuff so it will be nicely placed in next round of grazing hopefully? Does this look ok?

For the next 10 days they are being moved through this (3 day moves at the minute). Last year I cut this stuff for hay mid June but it went v dry and I was caught a bit short. Only ewes and lambs but was quite happy with the trampling? Hoping I don't compromise their growth bye forcing them to eat all, very happy with if going into soil, is this trampled enough to do that?

 

[Percy Veer]

That's why ground cover is SO important in our environment, whether you are arable or grazing.
Once we lose that groundcover, we are in all sorts of trouble . . .

I've a paddock where reseeding hasn't worked very well in large parts.

Apart from thistles and buttercups there is a broad-leafed weed, (with a central root), that covers a lot of the ground. When it is pulled out, underneath is a small plant of clover or grass etc. that is being smothered. If you clear an area what's left is a few plants (grass & clover) and large areas of bare ground.

Sheep barely touch the stuff. I've stocked it tightly when grazing so that it's all trampled on.

So do I try and clear it which will leave a lot of bare ground?

OR

Leave as is with no bare ground, but grasses and clover etc. being smothered, and when grazing, stock it tightly , and it will eventually come right?.

 

[ShooTa]

@Percy Veer i would choose the second choice - IF - you can - and by tight stocking were talking crazy tight for no more than an hour - smash it hard.
Or you could finger mow/very high top but then you might be making the situation worse with the tractor compaction.

@GreenerGrass looks good -similar to what im achieving atm..

 

[GreenerGrass]

I've a paddock where reseeding hasn't worked very well in large parts.

Since only one paddock can you feed hay over it? Maybe in the winter or wetter ground condition, or if you need a sacrifice paddock seems ideal spot. Just a thought.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I've a paddock where reseeding hasn't worked very well in large parts.

Apart from thistles and buttercups there is a broad-leafed weed, (with a central root), that covers a lot of the ground. When it is pulled out, underneath is a small plant of clover or grass etc. that is being smothered. If you clear an area what's left is a few plants (grass & clover) and large areas of bare ground.

Sheep barely touch the stuff. I've stocked it tightly when grazing so that it's all trampled on.

So do I try and clear it which will leave a lot of bare ground?

OR

Leave as is with no bare ground, but grasses and clover etc. being smothered, and when grazing, stock it tightly , and it will eventually come right?.

Option 2, is what I'd choose, without seeing it.
Had a similar issue where my younger grass paddocks are, because it was undersown under w/c cereals there were some very sparse patches, which then grew an outstanding crop of thistles.
I've just grazed them well over the past couple of years and left the thistles to do their thing, I oversowed some plantain on one just as an experiment, and they've filled in pretty well I have left them to seed out, because the grass is a shorter rotation type RG it seeds readily and now you wouldn't even know I called them "the acne paddocks".

 

[Kiwi Pete]

With the timing of my rotation some fields just seemed to be rested at a time when they went nuts, or had more annual grass species? Some of my future paddocks look 'better grazing' from an animal perspective, but hoping trampling this stuff so it will be nicely placed in next round of grazing hopefully? Does this look ok?

For the next 10 days they are being moved through this (3 day moves at the minute). Last year I cut this stuff for hay mid June but it went v dry and I was caught a bit short. Only ewes and lambs but was quite happy with the trampling? Hoping I don't compromise their growth bye forcing them to eat all, very happy with if going into soil, is this trampled enough to do that?

That's pretty impressive considering your mob 100 ewes and 140 lambs??
I'd be rapt with that, sheep only have little feet and grass is very springy at this stage of its career.
I personally think as long as you can blast the majority over at a 45° angle or better, then you force the plant to act, rather than just continue skyward and put its effort into flowering. So you don't have to be too severe at one sitting.

 

[Farmer Roy]

I've a paddock where reseeding hasn't worked very well in large parts.

Apart from thistles and buttercups there is a broad-leafed weed, (with a central root), that covers a lot of the ground. When it is pulled out, underneath is a small plant of clover or grass etc. that is being smothered. If you clear an area what's left is a few plants (grass & clover) and large areas of bare ground.

Sheep barely touch the stuff. I've stocked it tightly when grazing so that it's all trampled on.

So do I try and clear it which will leave a lot of bare ground?

OR

Leave as is with no bare ground, but grasses and clover etc. being smothered, and when grazing, stock it tightly , and it will eventually come right?.

Err, I don't know you or your land, so I will only talk in general & based on first principals
Also, my answers are always long & waffling & rarely simple solutions, so apologies in advance

My first inclination would be the second option. At least you have ground cover, roots & living organic matter in the soil & most likely, active biology. Anything growing is better than nothing.
We really need to redefine how we look at things. Many plants we think of as "weeds" are actually very useful pioneer or succession plants. Nature "hates a vacuum" & is always trying to produce life everywhere. These "weeds" are obviously able to exploit a situation where nothing else ( or at least, your desired plants ) will grow. Are they shading out & crowding your grasses / clovers, or are they actually sheltering them or providing better growing conditions for them, allowing them to establish ?
Are these broad leaved "weeds" annuals ? Be interesting to see what happens once they complete their life cycle & die ?
Many "weeds" are just able to exploit an opportunity that doesn't favour other species. Compaction, moisture, nutrition, light, etc etc
These large tap rooted plants of yours may be opening up your soil with their roots, helping infiltration & aeration when they did & decompose ?
Personally, I would suggest tight grazing & lots of trampling. In my experience, there is little that sheep won't eat, but we are talking rangeland Australian sheep, I have no experience with yours
An example of plant succession & pioneer species.
These open black soil plains were all originally grass land, similar to the North American or southern African ones everyone is more familiar with. Highly diverse Eco systems, but predominately grass dominant ( many species )
The bulk of it now is permanent arable zero till country, which obviously has a very restricted diversity & range of species grown.
When we switched from full cultivation to zero till 20 - 30 yes ago, the "weed" species also changed, as the different conditions then suited some species & didn't suit others.
The most interesting thing though is what happens if you just stop farming / spraying or planting anything & just let nature get on with it. Initially, big aggressive tap rooted broafleaved plants like Noogoora Burr would just explode & dominate. However, over a few years, they tend to loose their dominance & you start seeing some of the native grasses coming back. It varies, but say after 5 or 7 years, the country reverts back to a grass dominant landscape with only a few Noogoora
I have seen this on country that was effectively abandoned for nearly 10 years, & I have seen it happen much quicker on land that people have transitioned from arable back to grazing, using nothing more than electric wire, cattle & planned holistic grazing management

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Personally, I think that's a cracking post, you echoed my thoughts on it.

I notice that we still have a few deep rooters, but nothing like the thistles docks daisies or buttercups now - the grass is rooting deep and so they don't have that empty niche, or that bare ground to cover - so they take a back seat

If I was to rip something up, sure as eggs they will all be right there waiting - so I plan to not rip anything up.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

one of my acne paddocks

Looks better every time...

edit, this one had about 50/60% thistle cover 3 years ago.

 

[Henarar]

very often get what we call dung weed [not sure what its really called] come up here if we plough and reseed, goes after the first year
one field we done had mushrooms come up, the whole field was white with them, hardly seen a mushroom in that field before or since it just goes to show whats in the soil seed bank

 

[Farmer Roy]

how are things going re rain Roy ? any change

Hi
We had a good fall of 70 mm late march & another 50 mm about 3 ?? weeks ago
However, we still have a huge moisture deficit, the whole landscape is dehydrated, the soils, the rivers, water storages - are all dry
I am on heavy black clay soils, this was originally open grassland alluvial flood plains. Our soils have marvellous water holding capacity & we use this to our advantage - our whole farming systems & the adoption of zero till as standard is all about storing & conserving soil moisture, to grow our crops on. General rule of thumb is we will aim to plant a summer crop on at least 1 m of soil moisture & ideally 1m for winter crops, as we rely on that soil moisture to grow a crop rather than rain every week . . .
The downside of such wonderful high capacity soils is that when they truly dry out, it takes a lot of water to wet them up again. They tend to fill from the "bottom up", rather than from the top down.
The crops we have grown over the last few years have totally depleted all our soil moisture, with little rain to replenish it. So, now it is like a big sponge that has dried out completely. It can hold a lot of water, but when totally dry it needs a lot of water just to get it back to a starting point.

An example is at home, after that 50mm you can still just kick the soil with your boot & find moist soil under the dry surface, but you stick a moisture probe in the ground & it might only go in 100 - 200 mm before it hits dry soil again. And on these soils we certainly wouldn't risk planting that . . .
I am currently at home planting chickpeas. This season, my area was going to be 50 / 50 wheat & chickpeas, but I only have 2 fields that were going into chickies that have a metre of moisture under them, so that is all I'll plant at this stage. The wheat country & the country that will go into summer crops in the spring still don't have any sub soil moisture. I will need at least 150 - 200mm rain to even think about it.
These chickies will provide some relief ( assuming we harvest them ) in the short term, but if we don't get a summer crop planted at the end of the year, I don't see how we can stay viable or continue. I will need to get out on MY terms while I can, put up a For Sale sign while I still have equity & before I dig too big a hole I can't get out of.

 

[Henarar]

Hi
We had a good fall of 70 mm late march & another 50 mm about 3 ?? weeks ago
However, we still have a huge moisture deficit, the whole landscape is dehydrated, the soils, the rivers, water storages - are all dry
I am on heavy black clay soils, this was originally open grassland alluvial flood plains. Our soils have marvellous water holding capacity & we use this to our advantage - our whole farming systems & the adoption of zero till as standard is all about storing & conserving soil moisture, to grow our crops on. General rule of thumb is we will aim to plant a summer crop on at least 1 m of soil moisture & ideally 1m for winter crops, as we rely on that soil moisture to grow a crop rather than rain every week . . .
The downside of such wonderful high capacity soils is that when they truly dry out, it takes a lot of water to wet them up again. They tend to fill from the "bottom up", rather than from the top down.
The crops we have grown over the last few years have totally depleted all our soil moisture, with little rain to replenish it. So, now it is like a big sponge that has dried out completely. It can hold a lot of water, but when totally dry it needs a lot of water just to get it back to a starting point.

An example is at home, after that 50mm you can still just kick the soil with your boot & find moist soil under the dry surface, but you stick a moisture probe in the ground & it might only go in 100 - 200 mm before it hits dry soil again. And on these soils we certainly wouldn't risk planting that . . .
I am currently at home planting chickpeas. This season, my area was going to be 50 / 50 wheat & chickpeas, but I only have 2 fields that were going into chickies that have a metre of moisture under them, so that is all I'll plant at this stage. The wheat country & the country that will go into summer crops in the spring still don't have any sub soil moisture. I will need at least 150 - 200mm rain to even think about it.
These chickies will provide some relief ( assuming we harvest them ) in the short term, but if we don't get a summer crop planted at the end of the year, I don't see how we can stay viable or continue. I will need to get out on MY terms while I can, put up a For Sale sign while I still have equity & before I dig too big a hole I can't get out of.

Good post Roy and I am glad things have very slightly improved
odd to think that were it over here it sounds like your soil may well be to wet much of the time, we really don't know what a really dry time is thank goodness

 

[Kiwi Pete]

very often get what we call dung weed [not sure what its really called] come up here if we plough and reseed, goes after the first year
one field we done had mushrooms come up, the whole field was white with them, hardly seen a mushroom in that field before or since it just goes to show whats in the soil seed bank

We get oodles of Goldenrod, Landcrest, Musky Storksbill and chickweed on bare soil, they seem to be the main pioneers.
Then they're succeeded by thistles, docks, daisies, and mousy eared chickweed after that
And then the old "survival grasses" tend to come, mainly old Chewings fescue and meadow grasses, and once the ground is right the more palatable pasture species seem to overtake them - quite a rapid process with moisture not usually being too much of a problem.

Apologies for the greenness, Roy it will come

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Hi
We had a good fall of 70 mm late march & another 50 mm about 3 ?? weeks ago
However, we still have a huge moisture deficit, the whole landscape is dehydrated, the soils, the rivers, water storages - are all dry
I am on heavy black clay soils, this was originally open grassland alluvial flood plains. Our soils have marvellous water holding capacity & we use this to our advantage - our whole farming systems & the adoption of zero till as standard is all about storing & conserving soil moisture, to grow our crops on. General rule of thumb is we will aim to plant a summer crop on at least 1 m of soil moisture & ideally 1m for winter crops, as we rely on that soil moisture to grow a crop rather than rain every week . . .
The downside of such wonderful high capacity soils is that when they truly dry out, it takes a lot of water to wet them up again. They tend to fill from the "bottom up", rather than from the top down.
The crops we have grown over the last few years have totally depleted all our soil moisture, with little rain to replenish it. So, now it is like a big sponge that has dried out completely. It can hold a lot of water, but when totally dry it needs a lot of water just to get it back to a starting point.

An example is at home, after that 50mm you can still just kick the soil with your boot & find moist soil under the dry surface, but you stick a moisture probe in the ground & it might only go in 100 - 200 mm before it hits dry soil again. And on these soils we certainly wouldn't risk planting that . . .
I am currently at home planting chickpeas. This season, my area was going to be 50 / 50 wheat & chickpeas, but I only have 2 fields that were going into chickies that have a metre of moisture under them, so that is all I'll plant at this stage. The wheat country & the country that will go into summer crops in the spring still don't have any sub soil moisture. I will need at least 150 - 200mm rain to even think about it.
These chickies will provide some relief ( assuming we harvest them ) in the short term, but if we don't get a summer crop planted at the end of the year, I don't see how we can stay viable or continue. I will need to get out on MY terms while I can, put up a For Sale sign while I still have equity & before I dig too big a hole I can't get out of.

Just like de-stocking: The trick is in knowing when to accept that it has to be done. All in the timing.

Let's hope you don't have to do it.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Good post Roy and I am glad things have very slightly improved
odd to think that were it over here it sounds like your soil may well be to wet much of the time, we really don't know what a really dry time is thank goodness

Haha - believe me, I've had my share of wet years here also. Once it's wet, you can't do anything here. I once had a big flood in July ( just after I had planted my wheat ) & wasnt able to get back on the ground till October to then plant everything into grain sorghum - even then it was very heavy going. Highest yielding Sorghum I've ever grown though
Yeah, I think this country is much better suited to our dryland conditions than your climate / that why our farming systems & zero till have evolved & adapted the way they have.

Thanks for your good wishes

 

[Percy Veer]

Thanks for all the replies and advice guys. It's the plant with very small white flowers that's everywhere. I'll leave as is,apart from the thistles, and graze it tightly. May be overseed if the conditions are favourable. I'll let you know the what happens.

Thanks for the replies and advice guys. The problem weed has a very small white flower. I'll leave as is, apart from the thistles, and graze it tightly in the rotation. May be overseed if conditions are favourable. I'll let you know what happens.

 

[Karliboy]

Breaking some compaction up at least as much as I hate the Rudy things

I mentioned this field the other week it will have had 42 days recovery on Friday it’s way above my knees now. I think I need to blast over it before it gets to far ahead and nip the docks back from seeding (if it’s dry enough this weekend as it’s steep and don’t want to make a mess)

I will probably then only give it a short rest of 16 days as I will use it while at groundswell to hopefully help the old man out and then he isn’t running around looking for the cattle up the hill.
But I’m pretty sure it will have recovered enough by then.

 

[onesiedale]

Breaking some compaction up at least as much as I hate the Rudy things View attachment 806266
I mentioned this field the other week it will have had 42 days recovery on Friday it’s way above my knees now. I think I need to blast over it before it gets to far ahead and nip the docks back from seeding (if it’s dry enough this weekend as it’s steep and don’t want to make a mess)View attachment 806268 View attachment 806270

I will probably then only give it a short rest of 16 days as I will use it while at groundswell to hopefully help the old man out and then he isn’t running around looking for the cattle up the hill.
But I’m pretty sure it will have recovered enough by then.

Nice of you to consider the Old Man, . . . provided, of course, the bank side you are putting the stock on can be viewed fully from one convenient spot. (The gate )

 

[onesiedale]

Eating into it slowly. . .

It's certainly better than having to mow it.