"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[onesiedale]

Meanwhile on top of the hill, the babies are now officially fence trained

 

[Samcowman]

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/agri...b-havard-diverse-pastures-tickets-62461886183

 

[baaa]

What a great thread, I've been reading a fair proportion of everyone's comments for the last few days. I have a small farm of 60 acres in Brittany, France. I have 55 acres of it fenced for my sheep now and I also have horses. I watched a video of Allan Savory's Ted talk a year ago and it inspired me to split some of the fields into paddocks for the sheep. Has anyone else done this successfully? I'm using fibre glass posts with 4 plain wire strands to separate the paddocks. Its most effective where I have access to mains electricity for the fencer, sometimes the lambs go through it so maybe I need more strands when they are young. I've started to look more closely at the grass than I have before, and I've noticed the further away from the shady areas the grass growth is not very good compared to the places where they hang out in the summer. I think the grasses seem to be starved of nutrients. I must add that in the last fifteen years nothing has been added to these fields and they haven't been reseeded. Since I've had more sheep there are a lot less docks, no ragwort and more clover, but there are still these lightly grassed areas. I was wondering whether to put some nitrates down or wait a year and try to buy some FYM. Alternatively I could fence it so the sheep can't get to shade and feed them down there. I feed sheep alfalfa cubes, which has, I'm sure, raised the pH in many areas.

This year I do have a lot more grass than previous years, which was the object of the field splitting exercise of course but I am struggling a bit now. I have cleared a very steep field so I can use it to move the sheep from one half of the farm to another. Utilising the whole farm requires moving the sheep across roads and across a stream which they don't all want to do ( unless I'm not there and I want them to stay put - sheep!!) and, as a one woman band, I need to get friends to help, which isn't always possible. I read the link above, in which Mr. Harvard states that moving the stock every four days is enough. Have others using the system found this? How big do the sheep paddocks need to be is the golden question. I put them in an acre paddock for two days and they were desperate to get out of there and onto the next area.

To help with the frustration of not having help to move them I was thinking of keeping them in two mobs rather than one until weaning, and eventually wintering them for two months on a 2 acre sacrificial paddock. I bought two JFC hay bells last year and two three in one feeders, which eased the workload and kept the feed in good condition. On Feb 1st I was able to resume rotating the grazing, and we lambed outside in mid April.

So my question is, how can I integrate a holistic approach to planned grazing without the worry of not being able to get help when I need it? I need to do more fencing I know but will ten paddocks for each mob suffice or do I need more? Have others found that all their efforts to implement a HPG system for sheep been rewarded by extra grass and sheep/soil health? How do people who move their stock several times a day have time to sell them and do other things with the family? Lastly what is the average stocking rate for a well set up planned grazing system?

All good things come to those who wait/work/worry! (Delete as applicable.)

 

[ShooTa]

Quick response as its late by me - you may need to increase the grounding/earth for your electric fence - 0.5m of ground rod for every output joule.

could you make lane ways for your moves with gates along the route that stop tehm getting behind you? OR train them to follow you......i use seaweed in a red bucket or my voice... (the bucket is for when i need someone else to lead.)
i move 1x per day - im thinking this winter i may try 3/4 day moves to use the land differently and to be able to more easily fence.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Eating into it slowly. . .
View attachment 806398
It's certainly better than having to mow it.

sh!t, yes.
And you'll end up with far fewer weeds in there, compared to mowing it

 

[Farmer Roy]

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What a great thread, I've been reading a fair proportion of everyone's comments for the last few days. I have a small farm of 60 acres in Brittany, France. I have 55 acres of it fenced for my sheep now and I also have horses. I watched a video of Allan Savory's Ted talk a year ago and it inspired me to split some of the fields into paddocks for the sheep. Has anyone else done this successfully? I'm using fibre glass posts with 4 plain wire strands to separate the paddocks. Its most effective where I have access to mains electricity for the fencer, sometimes the lambs go through it so maybe I need more strands when they are young. I've started to look more closely at the grass than I have before, and I've noticed the further away from the shady areas the grass growth is not very good compared to the places where they hang out in the summer. I think the grasses seem to be starved of nutrients. I must add that in the last fifteen years nothing has been added to these fields and they haven't been reseeded. Since I've had more sheep there are a lot less docks, no ragwort and more clover, but there are still these lightly grassed areas. I was wondering whether to put some nitrates down or wait a year and try to buy some FYM. Alternatively I could fence it so the sheep can't get to shade and feed them down there. I feed sheep alfalfa cubes, which has, I'm sure, raised the pH in many areas.

This year I do have a lot more grass than previous years, which was the object of the field splitting exercise of course but I am struggling a bit now. I have cleared a very steep field so I can use it to move the sheep from one half of the farm to another. Utilising the whole farm requires moving the sheep across roads and across a stream which they don't all want to do ( unless I'm not there and I want them to stay put - sheep!!) and, as a one woman band, I need to get friends to help, which isn't always possible. I read the link above, in which Mr. Harvard states that moving the stock every four days is enough. Have others using the system found this? How big do the sheep paddocks need to be is the golden question. I put them in an acre paddock for two days and they were desperate to get out of there and onto the next area.

To help with the frustration of not having help to move them I was thinking of keeping them in two mobs rather than one until weaning, and eventually wintering them for two months on a 2 acre sacrificial paddock. I bought two JFC hay bells last year and two three in one feeders, which eased the workload and kept the feed in good condition. On Feb 1st I was able to resume rotating the grazing, and we lambed outside in mid April.

So my question is, how can I integrate a holistic approach to planned grazing without the worry of not being able to get help when I need it? I need to do more fencing I know but will ten paddocks for each mob suffice or do I need more? Have others found that all their efforts to implement a HPG system for sheep been rewarded by extra grass and sheep/soil health? How do people who move their stock several times a day have time to sell them and do other things with the family? Lastly what is the average stocking rate for a well set up planned grazing system?

All good things come to those who wait/work/worry! (Delete as applicable.)

Hi - welcome

I'm no longer much of a sheep farmer as you'll have read, but the principles are the same for any grazing stock.
I agree 100%, it's really "interesting" when you need a hand with the sheep and there isn't anyone handy - there is a limit to what you can do by yourself in this respect.

I guess most will either use a dog, spouse, mate, or their kids to help, but when I was starting out in livestock I had no help and so I used the "magic bucket method" that Shoota mentioned.
Now I just use the fact that they equate "me" with "food", because I shift them daily all year around they will follow me anywhere, and newcomers quickly learn the drill.

Just trying to visualise your scenario, and wondering if it would be worthwhile buying a temporary electric fence - maybe a triple geared reel and some treadin stakes?

You could then use them either to make a lane across your steep "transit" field, or for subdivision purposes at other times.

I have roughly 5.5 acre paddocks here, plus 2 ten acre ones and a 4 acre - 18 main paddocks on 100 acres and it works very well.
Not perfectly, nothing is perfect, but it's workable even without any further subdivision, plus with these size areas it's not much work to split them further as required.

Time in a paddock - I don't think you'll ever get a straight answer however if the goal is to reduce potential overgrazing then as short as possible when the grass is growing fast, when it slows then the potential to nip a recovering leaf is lessened.
Oddly, most farmers I know do the exact opposite
they move stock daily during the winter but park them in the same area all spring
...and so it isn't difficult to catapault yourself into the upper percentile....

3-day breaks seems a good compromise, if I had to give a recipe - but I'd aim for less in the springtime, if possible. Spring is where you make or break your year.

To my mind, you want to keep that 5 inch residual the whole time you have lambs on the place, as the parasites love the bottom 5 inches of the sward (especially ryegrass, it's built for the blighters) to keep them moving without heaps of parasite related issues

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Pretty incredible when you ponder where life on our landmasses came from -
where organic matter originally came from

It was all built by the invisible

 

[texas pete]

What a great thread, I've been reading a fair proportion of everyone's comments for the last few days. I have a small farm of 60 acres in Brittany, France. I have 55 acres of it fenced for my sheep now and I also have horses. I watched a video of Allan Savory's Ted talk a year ago and it inspired me to split some of the fields into paddocks for the sheep. Has anyone else done this successfully? I'm using fibre glass posts with 4 plain wire strands to separate the paddocks. Its most effective where I have access to mains electricity for the fencer, sometimes the lambs go through it so maybe I need more strands when they are young. I've started to look more closely at the grass than I have before, and I've noticed the further away from the shady areas the grass growth is not very good compared to the places where they hang out in the summer. I think the grasses seem to be starved of nutrients. I must add that in the last fifteen years nothing has been added to these fields and they haven't been reseeded. Since I've had more sheep there are a lot less docks, no ragwort and more clover, but there are still these lightly grassed areas. I was wondering whether to put some nitrates down or wait a year and try to buy some FYM. Alternatively I could fence it so the sheep can't get to shade and feed them down there. I feed sheep alfalfa cubes, which has, I'm sure, raised the pH in many areas.

This year I do have a lot more grass than previous years, which was the object of the field splitting exercise of course but I am struggling a bit now. I have cleared a very steep field so I can use it to move the sheep from one half of the farm to another. Utilising the whole farm requires moving the sheep across roads and across a stream which they don't all want to do ( unless I'm not there and I want them to stay put - sheep!!) and, as a one woman band, I need to get friends to help, which isn't always possible. I read the link above, in which Mr. Harvard states that moving the stock every four days is enough. Have others using the system found this? How big do the sheep paddocks need to be is the golden question. I put them in an acre paddock for two days and they were desperate to get out of there and onto the next area.

To help with the frustration of not having help to move them I was thinking of keeping them in two mobs rather than one until weaning, and eventually wintering them for two months on a 2 acre sacrificial paddock. I bought two JFC hay bells last year and two three in one feeders, which eased the workload and kept the feed in good condition. On Feb 1st I was able to resume rotating the grazing, and we lambed outside in mid April.

So my question is, how can I integrate a holistic approach to planned grazing without the worry of not being able to get help when I need it? I need to do more fencing I know but will ten paddocks for each mob suffice or do I need more? Have others found that all their efforts to implement a HPG system for sheep been rewarded by extra grass and sheep/soil health? How do people who move their stock several times a day have time to sell them and do other things with the family? Lastly what is the average stocking rate for a well set up planned grazing system?

All good things come to those who wait/work/worry! (Delete as applicable.)

With your electric fence, from experience it is more to do with spacing of the wires than how many lines you use, assuming you have enough power going through them. I have never used more than three and normally would only ever use two lines unless I was next to a road, with no hedge... They normally attempt to go through a fence, not over (unless you are starving them) so you want the line where they will touch it, preferably with their noses. Play around with spacings.

 

[Henarar]

With your electric fence, from experience it is more to do with spacing of the wires than how many lines you use, assuming you have enough power going through them. I have never used more than three and normally would only ever use two lines unless I was next to a road, with no hedge... They normally attempt to go through a fence, not over (unless you are starving them) so you want the line where they will touch it, preferably with their noses. Play around with spacings.

and make sure you have a good strong fencer

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I've always been concerned more that if a lamb pushes through, whether by accident or intent; that if you have built a fortress, it won't get back to the teat.
During lambing, I didn't put power on the bottom wire at all and basically run it along the grass as a visual thing, they never really tended to stray either.

I do think that the main point in keeping stock is to ensure the grass has had that "blaze of growth" that Voisin mentions in his books - it's my golden rule, if there is one.. if it has, then everything goes well.

If it hasn't, then it doesn't seem to go as well.

Maybe my stock migrate when I'm not around and know my routine but the last time I had a lamb on the wrong side of the fence, it had gone thru a 9 wire HT fence with 2 electric wires - because it had too much room and didn't know what to do with it?

 

[texas pete]

I've always been concerned more that if a lamb pushes through, whether by accident or intent; that if you have built a fortress, it won't get back to the teat.
During lambing, I didn't put power on the bottom wire at all and basically run it along the grass as a visual thing, they never really tended to stray either.

I do think that the main point in keeping stock is to ensure the grass has had that "blaze of growth" that Voisin mentions in his books - it's my golden rule, if there is one.. if it has, then everything goes well.

If it hasn't, then it doesn't seem to go as well.

True...They don't tend to stray far from mum, it's her you need to keep happy and keep in, in reality.

No stock can find where they escaped from, when you come to put them back, it's one of natures funny little laws. Come to think of it the barstewards can't usually see the open gateway you try and put them back through either...

 

[Kiwi Pete]

"Open Gate Terror"



I'm sure they have more wool in their heads than on them, sometimes!

That's very true - herd animals like to be (need to be?) herded together. I think most of the problem with keeping livestock is having too much space between them, certainly the case with bull beef.
If you want mud and blood, just give them room.

 

[baaa]

With your electric fence, from experience it is more to do with spacing of the wires than how many lines you use, assuming you have enough power going through them. I have never used more than three and normally would only ever use two lines unless I was next to a road, with no hedge... They normally attempt to go through a fence, not over (unless you are starving them) so you want the line where they will touch it, preferably with their noses. Play around with spacings.

 

[baaa]

I'd love to only use two wires. My 4 wires are 5-6" apart with the 2nd and 3rd closer. They do jump them if they are lower than 2 feet high.. They just love the challenge and new grass probably because I haven't got my grass long enough yet and/or I need to spread something to raise the pH to make the grass more palatable. That's the next investment although I also need more fencing and maybe a more powerful unit!

I'm intrigued by Kiwi Pete finding 18 paddocks enough to do daily moves. Does that mean that every 19 days you go back to paddock number one? Maybe I should concentrate on producing 18 paddocks then do a review of the situation.

 

[texas pete]

I'd love to only use two wires. My 4 wires are 5-6" apart with the 2nd and 3rd closer. They do jump them if they are lower than 2 feet high.. They just love the challenge and new grass probably because I haven't got my grass long enough yet and/or I need to spread something to raise the pH to make the grass more palatable. That's the next investment although I also need more fencing and maybe a more powerful unit!

I'm intrigued by Kiwi Pete finding 18 paddocks enough to do daily moves. Does that mean that every 19 days you go back to paddock number one? Maybe I should concentrate on producing 18 paddocks then do a review of the situation.

A powerful fencer is the key. They need more than just a tickle. Well worth having a good fence tester, if you haven’t already. It does help if the grass doesn’t look “greener” the other side of the fence too.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I'd love to only use two wires. My 4 wires are 5-6" apart with the 2nd and 3rd closer. They do jump them if they are lower than 2 feet high.. They just love the challenge and new grass probably because I haven't got my grass long enough yet and/or I need to spread something to raise the pH to make the grass more palatable. That's the next investment although I also need more fencing and maybe a more powerful unit!

I'm intrigued by Kiwi Pete finding 18 paddocks enough to do daily moves. Does that mean that every 19 days you go back to paddock number one? Maybe I should concentrate on producing 18 paddocks then do a review of the situation.

The more paddocks you have, the more control you have.
So therefore the better you can match your sheep to your grass growth, over the year.

I won't scare you too much.... but this time next year, we should have 420 paddocks all fenced up, and 130 water points. Cattle mostly, so single wires... we'll run 7 small mobs of cattle, each with 60 tiny paddocks, 1/4 acre each.

So, in this example we'll have our mobs start on about a 60-day round.
Once the soil warms up in the spring, we'll see good growth and as it speeds up, so will the cattle, we may get to a 20 day round - this could be 3 paddocks per day, or one paddock 3x a day.

Once we get that grass coming up, I'd probably sit on around 20- 30 days in order to just keep the cattle topping it nicely - a third to a half of the grass regardless of height/ length/ lbs/ac or kgDM/ha

... plants doesn't have measures, but they all have feelings and memories - I need those feelings and memories to be happy ones

Then once the grass stockpile "is built", summer will come and some of the grasses will slow down their growth and put their effort into reproduction, so we go with this, as it's natural to do this.. but we have a huge amount of buffer, the cattle and grass will still be happy.
Literally tons and tons of feed, so if it slows its growth then we'll have an abundance.
If it doesn't rain, we'll be right, but what we will be doing is carefully matching the grazing speed (days in the round) to the grass growth, all the time. We might be on a 60 day round, or even a 90 day round, if it gets really dry, and eat our buffer down and down. We might sell some cattle.

Then one day it will rain again and the grass will come away, so we can make the call to speed them up again, or not.

That's a big ramble but it hopefully explains why number of paddocks can hardly ever be "too many".
You can always drop some out for hay, for later on, for winter grazing etc. You can leave it standing till it all seeds out everywhere and collapses.

Lots of paddocks is more control, and more options.

But it can also simply be lots of cost. 20 reasonably regular paddocks would be good, because you could cut them into halves or thirds if you wanted more control over how your sheep are impacting the land, but also you can park them there for the weekend and ask a neighbour to look at them for you.

The system we're going toward is a Kiwitech technograzing system, designed mainly to be a really time effective and relatively cheap way to maximise what your land can do for you.
With hundreds of paddocks, I could simply put this cow with that bull for a day or two and then put them back together.
If I only had 3 paddocks, than that's difficult.

Sorry if this big spiel is overwhelming... but movement of stock is really vital for their health, pasture succession/regeneration, and ultimately makes money!

 

[baaa]

It's an amazing undertaking. I only find the idea of me doing all that fencing for sheep overwhelming! I do make small short term paddocks for the horses, which is relatively quick and easy, but once the ground really gets dry I can't easily move posts around anymore so they really need to be permanent. Although this year the forecast says we're in for a soaking till 16thJune.

Are you expecting to be able to run more livestock on your land as a result of the better grass production, or to maximise the rate of production you have now?

Certainly my lambs could do with going alot faster, without lots of input feeding, as carrying bags of food around isn't something I'm good at. I would like to carry more stock on my land to maximize its potential for when subsidies are phased out.

You've inspired me to investigate a project I have thought of before, but so far done nothing about. I own 7 acres of moorland nearby, which is considered to be impossible to cultivate. It is in a patch of about 100 acres of moorland, which is left permanently ungrazed. I considered renting the land and fencing it for my sheep although they wouldn't find it palatable at first. I would need to run the horses on it at first. It is stoney underneath so it could be a nightmare to fence. The fencing required would be a huge cost and a risk, so I would need to seek funding for it. Or perhaps I should invest in cattle for it!

 

[Samcowman]

This is the boys in and out today. The one they left was at about the same stage as the one they have gone into with a fair bit of seedhead head to see from the photo but they have trampled a fair bit of the strong stuff and should reset it a bit with the rain today. There are a couple which have been slow all season due to being grazed too tight on the first round so they will just be nipped off again. Need to time the rotation to be back in these paddocks in time for TB testing as they are next to the handling.
I think the easiest way to do it is set up semi permanent lanes and then all you need to do is put up cross fences. I fans this fairly quick and easy to do much easier than the pizza pie at the other side of the main field due to water. But I would say the less mobs the better from my point of view. I’m looking forward to July when the bulls come out and I can amalgamate groups of cows and calves.

 

[baaa]

I have a pizza field too. The shade, water and mineral licks are in the middle. At the moment its only split into four 5 acre paddocks for the sheep, but that needs to change! Because I want each paddock to benefit from the shade, it is difficult to make lanes work there.
I agree less mobs the better, unless like me you have roads between fields and need help moving them, which is impossible to get at the right moment. The sheep do follow me with the bucket, but some go ahead of me and I just know that without someone stood there, they will go straight on instead of into the next field!