"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Kiwi Pete]

Makes a lot of sense, but what about shallow compaction with all that trampling?

As other have said it's really a time issue more than anything else, and soils do get more resilient the more you feed them.
That little (hopefully) bit of compaction gives millions of sites for air/water to enter, instead of having the thatch you describe the hoof alters the topography (at a really minute scale) enough to be of great benefit. Generally here you can park cattle for a day in the wet, but you have to run sheep around to do it - but the moment it dries out then those prints are a focal point for vertical openings, like a billion chimneys with funnels on top.
This allows much better respiration for the soil biota, and helps drive root depth IMO.

So I guess it's short term pain for longterm gain, again it really all relates to time, all things do

 

[Blaithin]

Think of the migratory herds. Caribou, Bison, Wildebeast.... they don’t leave a trail of compaction behind them but if you parked them in one place for too long you’d start to notice detrimental effects.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

If I said that it had to be over a year ago

I'd say so.
Time flies when you're having fun, and fun is a bit of a constant here
Have to say it's been a great education, this thread, pleased now that I got it going as the perspective from others is what makes it great.
It's always interesting to have some real "data" as opposed to trying to imagine what would happen in a different climate - your senescent grass will just sit there, ours will at times and at other times it simply disappears.
Looking at the tops of the grass, you just don't see that.

 

[Fenwick]

There's a heap of species in there if you look closely enough. A heap everywhere TBH, I took note of some of the things @Blaithin was discussing a while (seems like a lifetime!) ago re recording species in a small hoop at random, and I can usually see upwards of 20 species present.
So my "diverse mix" is actually less diverse than the rest of the ranch by this time of year.

Lots of things you probably wouldn't drill in, but it's all alive and kicking!

So what did you drill in? What dont you have in the mix that you do find elsewhere in the farm? Do you understand the ecological function of the latter? I really like @Blaithin s idea of recording species using quadrats.

We are really considering adding less productive species, (or species for which we can't see an obvious "useful" function) to our pasture mixes, all be it at tiny amounts.

I thought a herbal ley was pretty diverse (4 species is considered very exotic over here!) and I had to get my seed mix sent from the U.K.
But the other day I read about swiss seed mixes with 40 to 60 odd varieties, and I realised that we are so far off the mark. The swiss mixes are 95% herbal ley and 5% wildflower etc. This then brings us back to this idea of "agriwilding" that @holwellcourtfarm posted about, and everyones a winner.

 

[Blaithin]

I would love to get a wildflower mix. They’re ridiculously hard to find here though. Don’t want to plant invasive species, would want them to be native, but that’s a tough thing to accomplish I guess.

 

[Rob Garrett]

Exposure of the top layer of soil always puts it at risk of damage. Exposure to heat, cold, wind, rain... that layer of detritusphere protects but also absorbs water. Go rake up a handful, dry it out, then stick it in a bowl with a couple cups of water, see how much it absorbs.

Think of it as the corn starch thickening your soup. It’s going to help your land from becoming too watery by acting as a thickening agent.

And since it protects the top layer of soil from hardening you’re more likely to achieve better “deep” water absorption instead of just surface run off and pooling.

Also, in a wet environment that residue is going to break down much faster than in more brittle areas. Your litter layer may be gone completely in a matter of months or maybe even weeks, here it could take years. By harrowing it away you’re actually removing the exact stuff you want to be there to build up OM.

You don’t have to trample it much to get it down enough for new growth to poke through. Also in your environment a lot of your trample is still going to be actively growing most of the year so will bounce back up and carry on its way instead of having to start from ground level beneath the thatch.

Hmmm...... Will have a trial this spring, thank you all.

 

[Bury the Trash]

I would love to get a wildflower mix. They’re ridiculously hard to find here though. Don’t want to plant invasive species, would want them to be native, but that’s a tough thing to accomplish I guess.

As a general rule they dont like fertile soil and they dont like being eaten

 

[Kiwi Pete]

So what did you drill in? What dont you have in the mix that you do find elsewhere in the farm? Do you understand the ecological function of the latter? I really like @Blaithin s idea of recording species using quadrats.

We are really considering adding less productive species, (or species for which we can't see an obvious "useful" function) to our pasture mixes, all be it at tiny amounts.

I thought a herbal ley was pretty diverse (4 species is considered very exotic over here!) and I had to get my seed mix sent from the U.K.
But the other day I read about swiss seed mixes with 40 to 60 odd varieties, and I realised that we are so far off the mark. The swiss mixes are 95% herbal ley and 5% wildflower etc. This then brings us back to this idea of "agriwilding" that @holwellcourtfarm posted about, and everyones a winner.

Drilled in: clovers, chicory, oats, radish, brome, prairie grass, cocksfoot.
Broadcast: sow thistle, dandelion, carrot, parsnip, forage rape, and birdseed
Already present: PRG, plantain, sweet vernal, chickweeds, crested dogstail, browntop, meadowgrass, "june grass", groundsel, landcrest

There's the 30+ species, I drilled 9 of them and flung another 9 or ten at it (didn't look too close at the birdseed!)

One big difference here to Canada is what we can get away with - ie a small amount of bare soil is OK and can aid germination of new plants, that's a moisture/brittleness thing

 

[Poorbuthappy]

As other have said it's really a time issue more than anything else, and soils do get more resilient the more you feed them.
That little (hopefully) bit of compaction gives millions of sites for air/water to enter, instead of having the thatch you describe the hoof alters the topography (at a really minute scale) enough to be of great benefit. Generally here you can park cattle for a day in the wet, but you have to run sheep around to do it - but the moment it dries out then those prints are a focal point for vertical openings, like a billion chimneys with funnels on top.
This allows much better respiration for the soil biota, and helps drive root depth IMO.

So I guess it's short term pain for longterm gain, again it really all relates to time, all things do

Took this pic the other day Pete. Sheep can certainly pug it with our current conditions. Very wet, grass grazed too short, and yet to make much gain in terms of soil carbon improvement.

 

[Jungle Bill]

I would love to get a wildflower mix. They’re ridiculously hard to find here though. Don’t want to plant invasive species, would want them to be native, but that’s a tough thing to accomplish I guess.

I worked on the A7 Ranch west of Nanton in 1973 where I still remember a cutting what we would now call a wildflower meadow for hay. It was the first time I had seen anything like it with red, blue and yellow flowers which turned into wonderful hay in 24 hours and it has always stayed in my mind as an ideal to aim for. I don’t know if it’s still like that or if you would be able to collect seed from somewhere like that.

 

[hendrebc]

The last field the ewes grazed down and I moved them from this morning. Grazed low as you can see but plenty left behind and it's very dense.

 

[onesiedale]

I would love to get a wildflower mix. They’re ridiculously hard to find here though. Don’t want to plant invasive species, would want them to be native, but that’s a tough thing to accomplish I guess.

Here you go.

We planted this mix at the exit from the parlour. Just about a 1½ acre strip that ran from the parlour to the farm entrance. It certainly proved to be a cracking talking point with the locals ?

 

[Bury the Trash]

View attachment 843342

Took this pic the other day Pete. Sheep can certainly pug it with our current conditions. Very wet, grass grazed too short, and yet to make much gain in terms of soil carbon improvement.

Either that's a short term ley without bottom to support them?

Or simply that they were not moved quick enough....that's what we always do in very wet sing it , keep them on the move ?

Fudge like that ( spoiling the soil structure ) will need a heck of a lot longer to recover than if they were moved before it happened.


That's what i dont get about 'that ' new method of grazing .

 

[CornishTone]

Here you go.
View attachment 843364

We planted this mix at the exit from the parlour. Just about a 1½ acre strip that ran from the parlour to the farm entrance. It certainly proved to be a cracking talking point with the locals [emoji846]

@st piran is into his flower mixes too...

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Got some weeds in your ryegrass Pete?![emoji57]

Trust the Agronomist to go all reductionist on us ?

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Either that's a short term ley without bottom to support them?

Or simply that they were not moved quick enough....that's what we always do in very wet sing it , keep them on the move ?

Fudge like that ( spoiling the soil structure ) will need a heck of a lot longer to recover than if they were moved before it happened.


That's what i dont get about 'that ' new method of grazing .

Actually it's where I moved them across a field to bring home. Old pp. Near the river admittedly, but I've got plenty of ground that will mark like that.


But I've been all grass wintering for a few years now, and I can categorically say if they're only on it for a day or 2, pugging it like that won't hurt recovery times. (And need only take a day or 2 to look like that this weather.)

 

[Bury the Trash]

Actually it's where I moved them across a field to bring home. Old pp. Near the river admittedly, but I've got plenty of ground that will mark like that.


But I've been all grass wintering for a few years now, and I can categorically say if they're only on it for a day or 2, pugging it like that won't hurt recovery times. (And need only take a day or 2 to look like that this weather.)

timothy and tall fescue is good even where theres standing water. seems to keep them out of the ground, well actually they don't eat it right down so tight either when theres standing water.
ill see if I can get a picture tomorrow,got a flock to move out of a particular field havnt been in there for a day or 2 so it might be a muck pit now ive said that

 

[Bury the Trash]

The last field the ewes grazed down and I moved them from this morning. Grazed low as you can see but plenty left behind and it's very dense.
View attachment 843344
View attachment 843345

could that be fair bit of creeping fescue ? or maybe what we call 'water grass' in that ? they don't like eating it very, very tight unlike ryegrasses etc and its a creeping mass that holds together so forms a'raft'

 

[Blaithin]

I worked on the A7 Ranch west of Nanton in 1973 where I still remember a cutting what we would now call a wildflower meadow for hay. It was the first time I had seen anything like it with red, blue and yellow flowers which turned into wonderful hay in 24 hours and it has always stayed in my mind as an ideal to aim for. I don’t know if it’s still like that or if you would be able to collect seed from somewhere like that.

While Nanton is close, they tend to have different plants down there as it’s drier. But I honestly couldn’t say what natural wildflowers are in my area as most native land is ploughed under. I know there’s Yarrow and Fleabane in my pasture and lots of Buffalo Beans.

Last year I did find a company a bit south that had a wildflower mix available. They recommended planting it on tilled, bare dirt ?‍ I can’t remember if it was too pricey to just try broadcasting on a pasture or not. I should look it up again and see.

This is what came up by me not grazing this year. I thought I had photos of the Buffalo Beans but can’t seem to find them if I did.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Either that's a short term ley without bottom to support them?

Or simply that they were not moved quick enough....that's what we always do in very wet sing it , keep them on the move ?

Fudge like that ( spoiling the soil structure ) will need a heck of a lot longer to recover than if they were moved before it happened.


That's what i dont get about 'that ' new method of grazing .

New method?
Is that the one where we leave them too long to aid "utilisation" - I don't get it either.
Longer recovery for the grass is ideal, for the sheep maybe not so much; but it does help a ton if the grass is ready for teeth about the same time as the soil is ready for feet.

I think that's where "plate-metering" instead of actual observation is a backward step - IYSWIM - because it tends to focus too much enough on the grass and this means less focus on the whole.
I hope that makes sense

We're about to cheat a little, my neighbour is really wanting to stop farming (we bought this bit off him, still has 8ac next to us with 2 cows on it) and wondered if we want to graze it out with our decent mob.
So this then poses the issue, do we just rip into his for a week and then carry on with our planned recovery times (20-24 days) or what?
Destocking on the peak growing month isn't (wasn't) ever in the plan