"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Northern territory]

We are struggling here now. Had we fully adopted Holistic Management 10 or even 7 years ago I strongly believe we'd be better placed right now. As it is we are doing better than some in this area who've been feeding out at pasture for weeks.

Get the soil health right and you'll be better

Firstly it's an attitude, a way of thinking, not a "system", just sayin'.

We are struggling here now. Had we fully adopted Holistic Management 10 or even 7 years ago I strongly believe we'd be better placed right now. As it is we are doing better than some in this area who've been feeding out at pasture for weeks.

Get the soil health right and you'll be better placed to face whatever weather you get.

i understand what you are saying but everyone’s farm is different so I guess there is no definitive way. I just read @Kiwi Pete posts and he seems to make it work by growing stock on for other people while also keeping his own. Can output be kept near current levels while reducing inputs or is it over a longer time period.

 

[martian]

Think we must be doing something wrong. Seem to have lots of grub for the beasts

 

[hendrebc]

What is everyone’s plan then ?Does this system suit a dry year or a wet year. Cattle or sheep. If you run a breeding herd or sheep flock with youngsters at foot how easy is it to destock. For dry stock I can see it being more flexible. No criticism just trying to get my head around it. Would like to go more down this route and I know there is a lot of trial and error. Would say we get long winters and are on a clay subsoil wet farm.

Ive been fiddling and tinkering out farm more towards this sort of system for the past 2 years doing what I can with what I have but don't properly have the infastructure (mainly water) to do it properly yet but I've spent a lot of time thinking the same thing. We are breeding ewes and suckler cows and I can only see it as a good thing in either dry years or wet years. In dry years it will leave more cover on the ground to stop it drying out and it wet years the extra cover will stop them sinking quite so much. Win win I'd say.
It shouldn't happen often I wouldn't think as our climate is fairly reliable up to now and if you are stocked appropriately and try and farm to follow nature and the seasons you should be ok.
But it's bound to happen eventually and you will find yourself with too much stock and not enough grass to feed them sustainably. If you find yourself overstocked with breeding stock it's not so easy to destock like someone with only trade stock can. Actually offloading cattle isn't easy at all anymore as they would still need a tb test before you could do anything with them.
The only way I can see around this is supplement feed somehow. As much as I hate the idea I think creep feeding lambs would work well if you found yourself needing to destock or slow a round down. You could probably get rid of some finished lambs faster like that too. You can chuck some silage or hay out for the cows until some calves are old enough to wean and sell the ones you'd cull.
I think I would have had to do both if we hadn't had some rain this week after some management mistakes early spring. This is a very unusual year though spring is almost always too wet not too dry!
I hate housing bit you can still destock into a shed if you have one. And I do and don't see me ever completely stopping using them while I have cattle here. No reason not to use it if you do even if it doesn't fit the regenerative image you see most places. The UK is quite different to most places as almost every farm with cattle (and most sheep farms) have a shed. I doubt I'd build one though it would cost far too much. And it does mean you need to keep a stock of conserved feed to feed them which isn't ideal when it could be on the fields feeding the soil. Can always buy in feed though.
Maybe keeping breeding ewes and cows isn't a good idea. It doesn't give you that flexibility that say breeding ewes and store cattle could and it's something I've thought about a lot. You could offload the cattle if things got tight or buy more if you needed to. But tb is the big spanner in that works. What's the point of having cattle to sell in a tough time if you can't sell them when they fail the tb test I'll stick with the cows for now at least I think because the ewes aren't going anywhere.

 

[Treg]

Think we must be doing something wrong. Seem to have lots of grub for the beasts View attachment 884659View attachment 884660

Nice to see it being done so wrong

 

[Northern territory]

Ive been fiddling and tinkering out farm more towards this sort of system for the past 2 years doing what I can with what I have but don't properly have the infastructure (mainly water) to do it properly yet but I've spent a lot of time thinking the same thing. We are breeding ewes and suckler cows and I can only see it as a good thing in either dry years or wet years. In dry years it will leave more cover on the ground to stop it drying out and it wet years the extra cover will stop them sinking quite so much. Win win I'd say.
It shouldn't happen often I wouldn't think as our climate is fairly reliable up to now and if you are stocked appropriately and try and farm to follow nature and the seasons you should be ok.
But it's bound to happen eventually and you will find yourself with too much stock and not enough grass to feed them sustainably. If you find yourself overstocked with breeding stock it's not so easy to destock like someone with only trade stock can. Actually offloading cattle isn't easy at all anymore as they would still need a tb test before you could do anything with them.
The only way I can see around this is supplement feed somehow. As much as I hate the idea I think creep feeding lambs would work well if you found yourself needing to destock or slow a round down. You could probably get rid of some finished lambs faster like that too. You can chuck some silage or hay out for the cows until some calves are old enough to wean and sell the ones you'd cull.
I think I would have had to do both if we hadn't had some rain this week after some management mistakes early spring. This is a very unusual year though spring is almost always too wet not too dry!
I hate housing bit you can still destock into a shed if you have one. And I do and don't see me ever completely stopping using them while I have cattle here. No reason not to use it if you do even if it doesn't fit the regenerative image you see most places. The UK is quite different to most places as almost every farm with cattle (and most sheep farms) have a shed. I doubt I'd build one though it would cost far too much. And it does mean you need to keep a stock of conserved feed to feed them which isn't ideal when it could be on the fields feeding the soil. Can always buy in feed though.
Maybe keeping breeding ewes and cows isn't a good idea. It doesn't give you that flexibility that say breeding ewes and store cattle could and it's something I've thought about a lot. You could offload the cattle if things got tight or buy more if you needed to. But tb is the big spanner in that works. What's the point of having cattle to sell in a tough time if you can't sell them when they fail the tb test I'll stick with the cows for now at least I think because the ewes aren't going anywhere.

Thank you very much this is the sort of advice I was looking for. Like you say it is infrastructure. Our farm is split over two holdings about 2 miles apart. Home farm 120 acres ish which would lend itself as most of it down to grass. 2 miles of riverside which could be utilised for water. The land is all drained as part of arable rotation. Mainly all grass now with some pp and leys of varying age. Ryegrass, Timothy white clover. Sheep graze most of it with hay silage made for indoor store cattle. It does lie water in a wet winter though.

 

[Samcowman]

Ive been fiddling and tinkering out farm more towards this sort of system for the past 2 years doing what I can with what I have but don't properly have the infastructure (mainly water) to do it properly yet but I've spent a lot of time thinking the same thing. We are breeding ewes and suckler cows and I can only see it as a good thing in either dry years or wet years. In dry years it will leave more cover on the ground to stop it drying out and it wet years the extra cover will stop them sinking quite so much. Win win I'd say.
It shouldn't happen often I wouldn't think as our climate is fairly reliable up to now and if you are stocked appropriately and try and farm to follow nature and the seasons you should be ok.
But it's bound to happen eventually and you will find yourself with too much stock and not enough grass to feed them sustainably. If you find yourself overstocked with breeding stock it's not so easy to destock like someone with only trade stock can. Actually offloading cattle isn't easy at all anymore as they would still need a tb test before you could do anything with them.
The only way I can see around this is supplement feed somehow. As much as I hate the idea I think creep feeding lambs would work well if you found yourself needing to destock or slow a round down. You could probably get rid of some finished lambs faster like that too. You can chuck some silage or hay out for the cows until some calves are old enough to wean and sell the ones you'd cull.
I think I would have had to do both if we hadn't had some rain this week after some management mistakes early spring. This is a very unusual year though spring is almost always too wet not too dry!
I hate housing bit you can still destock into a shed if you have one. And I do and don't see me ever completely stopping using them while I have cattle here. No reason not to use it if you do even if it doesn't fit the regenerative image you see most places. The UK is quite different to most places as almost every farm with cattle (and most sheep farms) have a shed. I doubt I'd build one though it would cost far too much. And it does mean you need to keep a stock of conserved feed to feed them which isn't ideal when it could be on the fields feeding the soil. Can always buy in feed though.
Maybe keeping breeding ewes and cows isn't a good idea. It doesn't give you that flexibility that say breeding ewes and store cattle could and it's something I've thought about a lot. You could offload the cattle if things got tight or buy more if you needed to. But tb is the big spanner in that works. What's the point of having cattle to sell in a tough time if you can't sell them when they fail the tb test I'll stick with the cows for now at least I think because the ewes aren't going anywhere.

A shed is a great tool to use for destocking when needed especially if you are feeding them bought in feed (fertility) to feed them with.
Probably the best way around is to have some stores to use as your flexibility or if calving later and TB allows to sell your cull cows calves through the calf ring.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Ive been fiddling and tinkering out farm more towards this sort of system for the past 2 years doing what I can with what I have but don't properly have the infastructure (mainly water) to do it properly yet but I've spent a lot of time thinking the same thing. We are breeding ewes and suckler cows and I can only see it as a good thing in either dry years or wet years. In dry years it will leave more cover on the ground to stop it drying out and it wet years the extra cover will stop them sinking quite so much. Win win I'd say.
It shouldn't happen often I wouldn't think as our climate is fairly reliable up to now and if you are stocked appropriately and try and farm to follow nature and the seasons you should be ok.
But it's bound to happen eventually and you will find yourself with too much stock and not enough grass to feed them sustainably. If you find yourself overstocked with breeding stock it's not so easy to destock like someone with only trade stock can. Actually offloading cattle isn't easy at all anymore as they would still need a tb test before you could do anything with them.
The only way I can see around this is supplement feed somehow. As much as I hate the idea I think creep feeding lambs would work well if you found yourself needing to destock or slow a round down. You could probably get rid of some finished lambs faster like that too. You can chuck some silage or hay out for the cows until some calves are old enough to wean and sell the ones you'd cull.
I think I would have had to do both if we hadn't had some rain this week after some management mistakes early spring. This is a very unusual year though spring is almost always too wet not too dry!
I hate housing bit you can still destock into a shed if you have one. And I do and don't see me ever completely stopping using them while I have cattle here. No reason not to use it if you do even if it doesn't fit the regenerative image you see most places. The UK is quite different to most places as almost every farm with cattle (and most sheep farms) have a shed. I doubt I'd build one though it would cost far too much. And it does mean you need to keep a stock of conserved feed to feed them which isn't ideal when it could be on the fields feeding the soil. Can always buy in feed though.
Maybe keeping breeding ewes and cows isn't a good idea. It doesn't give you that flexibility that say breeding ewes and store cattle could and it's something I've thought about a lot. You could offload the cattle if things got tight or buy more if you needed to. But tb is the big spanner in that works. What's the point of having cattle to sell in a tough time if you can't sell them when they fail the tb test I'll stick with the cows for now at least I think because the ewes aren't going anywhere.

Agreed.

We've run a suckler herd for over 40 years but I'm wondering now whether it's worth the lack of flexibility it brings. I get huge enjoyment out of seeing calves born and grow so I suspect they'd be hard to turn our back on completely.

Another option would be raising replacements for a dairy unit under contract, a bit like some of what Pete does, but that could get very complicated for TB if we still had stock of our own as well.

 

[Gulli]

It just does that, occasionally... I think we had about 88mm right at the start of the month and 208mm right at the end - without going through my diary...fair bit of rain for 4½ days - it all depends what angle it comes from as to whether the Catlins hills steer it out to sea or grate the arses out of the clouds and we get a soak.

A low pressure system offshore just drives it in from the east, pretty much guaranteed 3 days of rain in that case. These save the day sometimes, and generate mud at other times. I don't want mud.

A straight southerly here brings snow, as Antarctica begins, 2500km in that direction.

It can also turn it off just as easily, as per the second and 3rd year of us being here, some fairly dry summers by our standards; if Oz is hot then it seems to suck systems further northward up the Tasman and then it just doesn't rain at all. Oz is heating up so we must respond to that.

Hence the tall-grass grazing with old-school pastures and beef cattle seems like a much better propostion for the future than chewing it all down neat and moaning about what happens next...
I'd rather not go back there....

Fairly safe now to wax it off as moisture isn't limiting, of course, but in the summer I think our best bet is to conserve feed on the land than keep feed dry in a barn and leave the land bare. The grass belongs to the land, and it tends to remind us from time to time it doesn't just belong to our livestock

I suppose you are down south. Would have killed for rain like that in January working in Northland!

 

[onesiedale]

Funny stuff, rainfall.

Not as mad here as elsewhere on the globe, but our monthly rainfall totals in inches for the YTD:

Jan 13.46
Feb 1.04
March 2.01
April 0.63
May 0.24
June 1.21

(Bearing in mind that our 'average' is 3.5-5 inches per month)

Life would be so much easier if every month gave us average weather - trouble is, on average, average weather doesn't happen!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

We are struggling here now. Had we fully adopted Holistic Management 10 or even 7 years ago I strongly believe we'd be better placed right now. As it is we are doing better than some in this area who've been feeding out at pasture for weeks.

Get the soil health right and you'll be better
i understand what you are saying but everyone’s farm is different so I guess there is no definitive way. I just read @Kiwi Pete posts and he seems to make it work by growing stock on for other people while also keeping his own. Can output be kept near current levels while reducing inputs or is it over a longer time period.

I think Ian pretty much nailed it, what I see is that HPG becomes "more vital" when you're in a more extreme climate (like, basically every other poster on here compared to me) but more rapid in a mild climate.
I could probably still survive if I based our business on a recipe or 12 but I doubt we'd be thriving - it's hard to measure or quantify "regenerative" but there's huge levels of safety in what we do here.
There's safety in "feeding the world" too, but not much profit, and not much safety for the land without a heap of rules and regs to protect it.

The main differences for us, the land is much more resilient, the business is more robust, and we established that producing commodities isn't our best use of what we have

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Life would be so much easier if every month gave us average weather - trouble is, on average, average weather doesn't happen!

Had another big dump overnight, I even have puddles in the gateways now ? feel like a proper farmer

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I suppose you are down south. Would have killed for rain like that in January working in Northland!

It's certainly a lot different when you get it, to when you don't!
We've been here 4 years and 3 summers ago they declared a drought (handily it started the rain the next day)
All it really takes is one decent downpour if your rainfall is 100% effective, our mean annual temp is about 11.7° which is a lot closer to the dew point than the far north, and we get a lot less sunshine hours which also makes a big difference.

Quite a contrast compared to hot places, where they have much higher evaporation/transpiration rates, they just dry out so fast.

It's probably not even the dry itself but "what you expect", I have a mate up Lauder direction who knows it's dry and farms for it, and thus has a great business. Handy having such a diverse group!

"what we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning"
- Dr Ardern Andersen

 

[Farmer Roy]

Is that a typo for January or has the weather in New Zealand sh!t it's pants?

in November 2000, we effectively had our average annual rainfall ( 26 inches for the non metric UK crowd ) in 11 days . . .

 

[Kiwi Pete]

in November 2000, we effectively had our average annual rainfall ( 26 inches for the non metric UK crowd ) in 11 days . . .

It's mental.

Was just talking to Jono Frew and we were discussing just how fragile "we make our landscape" and how fast we can turn that around when there is reliable rain, like here - but how long it takes to see change in brittle environments.

That whole social conditioning of rain being "bad weather" neatly misses the point that "poor management" is the issue in many cases.

We're also concerned that there is so much emphasis on soil Carbon that soil function is being overlooked, as infiltration brings aeration along with it. All these little angles of thought are why I'm so addicted to "this"

 

[Farmer Roy]

It's mental.

Was just talking to Jono Frew and we were discussing just how fragile "we make our landscape" and how fast we can turn that around when there is reliable rain, like here - but how long it takes to see change in brittle environments.

That whole social conditioning of rain being "bad weather" neatly misses the point that "poor management" is the issue in many cases.

We're also concerned that there is so much emphasis on soil Carbon that soil function is being overlooked, as infiltration brings aeration along with it. All these little angles of thought are why I'm so addicted to "this"

haha - what is that line of Billy Connolly’s about the British Army’s attitude to weather ? “There is no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothing”
Maybe in regards to agriculture, there is no such thing as “bad” weather, just the wrong management approach or mindset ?
That would really set the cat amongst the pigeons with the TFF crowd wouldn’t it

 

[Kiwi Pete]

haha - what is that line of Billy Connolly’s about the British Army’s attitude to weather ? “There is no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothing”
Maybe in regards to agriculture, there is no such thing as “bad” weather, just the wrong management approach or mindset ?
That would really set the cat amongst the pigeons with the TFF crowd wouldn’t it

Wrong mindset towards groundcover, soil, and livestock's role - otherwise passable ???

 

[Farmer Roy]

https://www.facebook.com/1457963701/posts/10221572084398952

 

[Farmer Roy]

Which Circle Are You In?
July 25th, 2018 by Dave Pratt

I go to a lot of meetings. I often hear people complain about how tough we have it. The three favorite topics are bad weather, low prices and government regulations (three things you can’t do anything about). Those are followed up by gossip about the neighbor … and if the neighbor is there … it turns to gossip about the other neighbor.
One of the things I enjoy most about the people who come to the Ranching For Profit School and who join Executive Link is their attitude. They aren’t there to complain about government policy, commodity prices or weather. They are there to figure out what they are going to do about government policy, how they plan to position themselves relative to markets and how they plan to prepare for and manage through severe weather. They work in a different circle.
In Stephen Covey’s all-time best-selling book on personal development, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Covey describe two circles: a circle of concern and a circle of influence. The circle of concern includes things that we care about but can’t impact. The circle of influence lies within the circle of concern and includes all of the things that we care about AND can do something about. Covey points out that the more time we worry or complain about the things in the circle of concern, the less effective we are. Highly effective people focus on their circle of influence. The more we focus on the things we can actually do something about, the more our circle of influence grows and the more effective we become. That’s where most RFP students and EL members spend most of their time and energy.

This is more than a theory. A young couple asked for my advice regarding a problem “with their parents.” They were excited about the things they’d learned at the Ranching For Profit School but were concerned that when they returned home their family would be resistant to change and would reject their ideas. “They won’t let us do anything!” they complained.
“They won’t let you do anything?” I asked. “They won’t even let you write a proposal?”
“They won’t show us the numbers,” they said.
We had just talked about how reconstructing last year isn’t very useful since you can’t change the past. It is much more valuable to make projections. I reminded them, “You don’t need last year’s numbers to make projections for next year. Can you project the impact of the changes you want to make on overhead costs, gross margin and turnover?”
They reluctantly agreed that they could.
I continued, “Can you project the cash flow, determine how much capital would be required or liberated, and show how labor would be impacted by your ideas? Could you project the implications in drought or low markets or other contingencies?”
They’d been focusing on their circle of concern and something that they couldn’t do anything about (their folks reaction). I was trying to steer them into their circle of influence and the things they could control (creating a proposal).
This isn’t just about effectiveness. It is also about happiness. It is easy to blame things beyond your control, but pity parties aren’t much fun. In fact, framing yourself as a victim leads to anger, frustration and depression. In contrast, there is nothing more motivating than producing results. ALL of the results you produce come when you work in your circle of influence.
There’s no point complaining about things you can’t do anything about. It’s not prices, government or drought that will determine your success or failure. It is how you position yourself relative to these issues and how you manage your business through this environment. To find proof, all you have to do is look around. Some people managing through drought, depressed prices and working with agencies, are more successful than others. It’s not just luck. It’s what they do that makes the difference. It’s not the situation but our response that counts.
It is easy to be distracted by all of the things we care about that we can’t change. The challenge is to find the part of these things that we can actually do something about. There’s plenty in our circle of influence to keep us engaged and productive. It’s time we rolled up our sleeves and get to work on those things.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That's such a great article ^^^^

Highly recommend Stephen Covey's book too, a real game-changer for me, it's easy to fall into the trap of spending too much energy in the wrong areas.

 

[Henarar]

It's mental.

Was just talking to Jono Frew and we were discussing just how fragile "we make our landscape" and how fast we can turn that around when there is reliable rain, like here - but how long it takes to see change in brittle environments.

That whole social conditioning of rain being "bad weather" neatly misses the point that "poor management" is the issue in many cases.

We're also concerned that there is so much emphasis on soil Carbon that soil function is being overlooked, as infiltration brings aeration along with it. All these little angles of thought are why I'm so addicted to "this"

Still get "bad weather" no matter how you farm, its the ability of the farm and/or you as manager to cope with it that can be improved. The plan for different or "bad" weather must be part of the holistic approach isn't it ? Cos when you look at the weather as a whole it happens maybe not the norm but it does and I think you have to have a plan for that, this can range from making the land/crop/animals more resilient to different weather as you have said to having an alternative like a bloody great shed
Average weather don't happen but you do get normal weather which normally happens and extreme weather which you don't farm expecting but you need a plan for it.