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"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..
- Thread starter Kiwi Pete
- Start date
- Location
- Connemara, Ireland
It's true, though.
The less I get in the way, the better things get in their own way.
Had 'a big push' yesterday, 2½ hours and that's it for the year
It is true. A lad who helped me with round bales of hay in Feb and March admitted he's been searching for info on different ways of farming like bale grazing and biochar since we talked. But, he never asked me for leads at the same time
I put him onto Greg Judy on YT and Biofarm 2020, that should be enough for a while!
- Location
- Quebec, Canada
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
A bit like at school when you mess with the heads of the "cool dudes" by exposing the pettiness of their obsessions, You could have SO much fun wandering past a bunch of arable lads in mid summer bragging about their long harvest hours and casually mention you haven't started a tractor in 6 monthsIt's true, though.
The less I get in the way, the better things get in their own way.
Had 'a big push' yesterday, 2½ hours and that's it for the year
- Location
- somerset
we spread a very thin sprinkle of lime, in our dairy cubicles every day, cows come to no harm.
with the increased use of N over the last 50 yrs, probably acidified the soils ourselves, couple that with the removal of the natural flora, we created a problem ! Making a visit to deliver his turkey, cousin and i were talking about corn yields, he has a very dry arable farm, some of which has been arable since 1941, all ploughed, yield is now dependant on rainfall, and fert used, both of us agree, the new varieties of corn, and grass, that are promoted seem to be bred to make us use more sprays, but with these 'new' varieties don't really increase profit. I fully expect that what is happening on most of the light, long term arable soils. That is quite a sobering thought.
happy xmas, and a better new year.
with the increased use of N over the last 50 yrs, probably acidified the soils ourselves, couple that with the removal of the natural flora, we created a problem ! Making a visit to deliver his turkey, cousin and i were talking about corn yields, he has a very dry arable farm, some of which has been arable since 1941, all ploughed, yield is now dependant on rainfall, and fert used, both of us agree, the new varieties of corn, and grass, that are promoted seem to be bred to make us use more sprays, but with these 'new' varieties don't really increase profit. I fully expect that what is happening on most of the light, long term arable soils. That is quite a sobering thought.
happy xmas, and a better new year.
- Location
- Connemara, Ireland
A bit like at school when you mess with the heads of the "cool dudes" by exposing the pettiness of their obsessions, You could have SO much fun wandering past a bunch of arable lads in mid summer bragging about their long harvest hours and casually mention you haven't started a tractor in 6 months
I'm not starting lambing until the 10th of May, imagine how that's f**king with lads heads here
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
My expectation is that eventually the tractors and even my little plough will be retired and restored.A bit like at school when you mess with the heads of the "cool dudes" by exposing the pettiness of their obsessions, You could have SO much fun wandering past a bunch of arable lads in mid summer bragging about their long harvest hours and casually mention you haven't started a tractor in 6 months
Nice trinkets, a bit of an ode to my Dad - "farming was good when we finished"
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Floof!
Flufffhead in the frontFloof!
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Our fluffhead isn't really doing well as a leader anymore. Maybe time for another "eyewig" on the next trip past the yards, I just don't think she can see too well. And probably needs a crutch and/or drench.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
That "diversity" thing again.
Just read what @Blaithin had to say about that, surely we're allowed to have some pets amongst the "tools" in the box. Tinky (the romney) makes a good sheep leader when she can see.
The Brown Swiss might be slow finishing as a beef animal but he's also such a great help as a leader, when we get new cattle join the fray he's patient enough to show them how to get from A to B.
(Comes up for a scratch to show off his relationship with the humans, which soon calms down the new ones who have probably never entertained the idea of being that close to someone by choice).
Sometimes the odd ones out are just as big a part of the whole as "the mob of many", probably linking in nicely with the topic of riparian areas vs fields... how small does 'the riparian area' need to be, in a grazing context?
Can the whole ranch be one?
What actually qualifies as "area that can just be grazed anytime" and what's "area that should only be grazed when we need to/should graze it"?
One of the things I mentioned during the week was that I was concerned that my management "for diversity" was actually not working as planned, that we were actually losing some.
This may not be the case, but it's caused me to replan our methods while looking at the goals.
(Hard to compare a long rest with short recoveries... but still a concern because of "those principles")
It's all something to plan for... we'll feed it into the grazing plan/ adaptive recovery plan or whatever we want to call that.
It's been more difficult to assess plant diversity across the past 12 months because of various changes made in that time - example, we grazed out a large area and drilled seed into it, shut it up for 120 days and that meant heaps of diversity (and we spent money and time as well). We had 600 hoggets this time last year and now there's 300. We have twice as many cattle or more.
Comparing the number of plant species now, to 6 months ago, to 12 months ago... tricky!
So many variables.
One thing that is "flagging" is that we really need to break out of that "rotational grazing" mindset again, it gets really comfortable going back to it, but it encourages grazing acceleration.
I think what we need to work towards is a less selective grazing with more recovery time, because we're leaving grass it tends to really be the grass the stock don't like.
I think it will fail, in time, if we continue to graze this way.
Just read what @Blaithin had to say about that, surely we're allowed to have some pets amongst the "tools" in the box. Tinky (the romney) makes a good sheep leader when she can see.
The Brown Swiss might be slow finishing as a beef animal but he's also such a great help as a leader, when we get new cattle join the fray he's patient enough to show them how to get from A to B.
(Comes up for a scratch to show off his relationship with the humans, which soon calms down the new ones who have probably never entertained the idea of being that close to someone by choice).
Sometimes the odd ones out are just as big a part of the whole as "the mob of many", probably linking in nicely with the topic of riparian areas vs fields... how small does 'the riparian area' need to be, in a grazing context?
Can the whole ranch be one?
What actually qualifies as "area that can just be grazed anytime" and what's "area that should only be grazed when we need to/should graze it"?
One of the things I mentioned during the week was that I was concerned that my management "for diversity" was actually not working as planned, that we were actually losing some.
This may not be the case, but it's caused me to replan our methods while looking at the goals.
(Hard to compare a long rest with short recoveries... but still a concern because of "those principles")
It's all something to plan for... we'll feed it into the grazing plan/ adaptive recovery plan or whatever we want to call that.
It's been more difficult to assess plant diversity across the past 12 months because of various changes made in that time - example, we grazed out a large area and drilled seed into it, shut it up for 120 days and that meant heaps of diversity (and we spent money and time as well). We had 600 hoggets this time last year and now there's 300. We have twice as many cattle or more.
Comparing the number of plant species now, to 6 months ago, to 12 months ago... tricky!
So many variables.
One thing that is "flagging" is that we really need to break out of that "rotational grazing" mindset again, it gets really comfortable going back to it, but it encourages grazing acceleration.
I think what we need to work towards is a less selective grazing with more recovery time, because we're leaving grass it tends to really be the grass the stock don't like.
I think it will fail, in time, if we continue to graze this way.
- Location
- Cheshire
That "diversity" thing again.
Just read what @Blaithin had to say about that, surely we're allowed to have some pets amongst the "tools" in the box. Tinky (the romney) makes a good sheep leader when she can see.
The Brown Swiss might be slow finishing as a beef animal but he's also such a great help as a leader, when we get new cattle join the fray he's patient enough to show them how to get from A to B.
(Comes up for a scratch to show off his relationship with the humans, which soon calms down the new ones who have probably never entertained the idea of being that close to someone by choice).
Sometimes the odd ones out are just as big a part of the whole as "the mob of many", probably linking in nicely with the topic of riparian areas vs fields... how small does 'the riparian area' need to be, in a grazing context?
Can the whole ranch be one?
What actually qualifies as "area that can just be grazed anytime" and what's "area that should only be grazed when we need to/should graze it"?
One of the things I mentioned during the week was that I was concerned that my management "for diversity" was actually not working as planned, that we were actually losing some.
This may not be the case, but it's caused me to replan our methods while lookingourages grazing acceleration.
Hi Pete, merry Christmas. Could you expand on this bit please as I don't understand why it would accelerate?
Cheers
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Merry Christmas!
We get reasonably good rainfall here, and good pasture growth.
That's the reason for my "acceleration" comment, the grass is ready to graze a month behind the mob (in fact a few weeks, barely even a month) and "thing" is that we stress the system every time we graze.
I know it's not what people want to hear, but
Stress isn't all bad, I mean if we didn't have "Christmas Day" then would y'all have gone and done any shopping yet? If we didn't have financial stress then we mightn't try so hard to produce stuff. Stress isn't all bad.
Plants don't mind occasional stress either, say your cow comes thundering along and wraps that big wet tongue around a bunch of grass and rips it off, it stimulates the system and it stresses the system. It's not a bad thing!
But there's the factor of time.... I think Blaithin mentioned that she may graze an area 5 times in two years? Or something similar.
That gives the plants full rest but it also gives the soil "spare time" to just absorb energy from the plants and get better. The worms literally have months to just be worms, doing wormy stuff. All these processes need time.
Take this back to our context, if I keep leaving a fair bit of grass behind the mob just because I can, and the grass is almost always fog and dogstail that they leave behind - then we're really not managing well.
Firstly, what we are really managing "for" is thistles, fog, and dogstail. Just like worming is selecting for wormer resistant worms, using glypho is selecting for glypho resistant plants... selective grazing all the time is selecting for plants that the stock don't like so much.
But secondly, we're also denying our system "time" to recover. The grass is looking alright, but is that enough?
About 1900 pages ago, @Global ovine mentioned about "severe grazing with long recovery periods" or words to effect as being the best way to increase humus production and it's still dead right. It was dead right in 1986 and it still is.
What's happened here is that we've actually changed what our main concern is - it used to be that our water cycle was crap.
The soil was hungry (because it was farmed well, maybe too well?) and it wasn't getting enough litter, the soil surface was mostly bare and this = runoff, evaporation, things we don't want.
Now, we've been addressing this concern for a while, and it's meant that maybe other things are going to be limiting (resource concerns) as we go forward. Things like having a whole heap of grasses that nothing bar a 4yo beef cow will do well on.
We might have to graze youngstock here, or sheep, we aren't 100% in control of what we can get. So there's a big benefit in maintaining species diversity in the pasture.
But, above all else our main, overarching goal here is to be regenerative, to actually heal and build soil, and I don't think the best way to do that is via photosynthetic recovery all the time (leaving heaps of plant matter behind) but to change it up.
Reserve driven recovery (actually wax it off, high utilisation so it can have 100 or more days to regrow) probably isn't going to mean instant drought/flood.
If we did it 3 years ago, sure it probably would have, but we've laid down an inch of soil since then. We can go back to that at any time, it's just monitoring has suggested we shift the goalposts.
Say we now try to graze in spring (leave some grass behind) and then again in summer (lay it flat) and then graze again in the wintertime after a decent rest, it should be a dramatic improvement over grazing every month because the grass is sufficient to do so?
If you think about animals in the wild, they won’t constantly be moving across the countryside in a big dense mob flattening everything only coming back once the plant is in top condition. They will get to an area with good sweet grass and clean water and stick around for a while and spread out, then move off again, maybe come back and have another go at it when it puts up young shoots again.Merry Christmas!
We get reasonably good rainfall here, and good pasture growth.
That's the reason for my "acceleration" comment, the grass is ready to graze a month behind the mob (in fact a few weeks, barely even a month) and "thing" is that we stress the system every time we graze.
I know it's not what people want to hear, but
Stress isn't all bad, I mean if we didn't have "Christmas Day" then would y'all have gone and done any shopping yet? If we didn't have financial stress then we mightn't try so hard to produce stuff. Stress isn't all bad.
Plants don't mind occasional stress either, say your cow comes thundering along and wraps that big wet tongue around a bunch of grass and rips it off, it stimulates the system and it stresses the system. It's not a bad thing!
But there's the factor of time.... I think Blaithin mentioned that she may graze an area 5 times in two years? Or something similar.
That gives the plants full rest but it also gives the soil "spare time" to just absorb energy from the plants and get better. The worms literally have months to just be worms, doing wormy stuff. All these processes need time.
Take this back to our context, if I keep leaving a fair bit of grass behind the mob just because I can, and the grass is almost always fog and dogstail that they leave behind - then we're really not managing well.
Firstly, what we are really managing "for" is thistles, fog, and dogstail. Just like worming is selecting for wormer resistant worms, using glypho is selecting for glypho resistant plants... selective grazing all the time is selecting for plants that the stock don't like so much.
But secondly, we're also denying our system "time" to recover. The grass is looking alright, but is that enough?
About 1900 pages ago, @Global ovine mentioned about "severe grazing with long recovery periods" or words to effect as being the best way to increase humus production and it's still dead right. It was dead right in 1986 and it still is.
What's happened here is that we've actually changed what our main concern is - it used to be that our water cycle was crap.
The soil was hungry (because it was farmed well, maybe too well?) and it wasn't getting enough litter, the soil surface was mostly bare and this = runoff, evaporation, things we don't want.
Now, we've been addressing this concern for a while, and it's meant that maybe other things are going to be limiting (resource concerns) as we go forward. Things like having a whole heap of grasses that nothing bar a 4yo beef cow will do well on.
We might have to graze youngstock here, or sheep, we aren't 100% in control of what we can get. So there's a big benefit in maintaining species diversity in the pasture.
But, above all else our main, overarching goal here is to be regenerative, to actually heal and build soil, and I don't think the best way to do that is via photosynthetic recovery all the time (leaving heaps of plant matter behind) but to change it up.
Reserve driven recovery (actually wax it off, high utilisation so it can have 100 or more days to regrow) probably isn't going to mean instant drought/flood.
If we did it 3 years ago, sure it probably would have, but we've laid down an inch of soil since then. We can go back to that at any time, it's just monitoring has suggested we shift the goalposts.
Say we now try to graze in spring (leave some grass behind) and then again in summer (lay it flat) and then graze again in the wintertime after a decent rest, it should be a dramatic improvement over grazing every month because the grass is sufficient to do so?
So some areas get hammered when they are moving through, some bits will get overgrazed and other bits won’t get touched and go rank, until winter when what’s left of the good sweet stuff is hidden under snow and then they go for the long rank stuff which they can scrape the snow off and get a hold of it.
All my animals are pets. I actually received a recent lecture from the vet about naming them allThat "diversity" thing again.
Just read what @Blaithin had to say about that, surely we're allowed to have some pets amongst the "tools" in the box. Tinky (the romney) makes a good sheep leader when she can see.
The Brown Swiss might be slow finishing as a beef animal but he's also such a great help as a leader, when we get new cattle join the fray he's patient enough to show them how to get from A to B.
(Comes up for a scratch to show off his relationship with the humans, which soon calms down the new ones who have probably never entertained the idea of being that close to someone by choice).
Sometimes the odd ones out are just as big a part of the whole as "the mob of many", probably linking in nicely with the topic of riparian areas vs fields... how small does 'the riparian area' need to be, in a grazing context?
Can the whole ranch be one?
What actually qualifies as "area that can just be grazed anytime" and what's "area that should only be grazed when we need to/should graze it"?
One of the things I mentioned during the week was that I was concerned that my management "for diversity" was actually not working as planned, that we were actually losing some.
This may not be the case, but it's caused me to replan our methods while looking at the goals.
(Hard to compare a long rest with short recoveries... but still a concern because of "those principles")
It's all something to plan for... we'll feed it into the grazing plan/ adaptive recovery plan or whatever we want to call that.
It's been more difficult to assess plant diversity across the past 12 months because of various changes made in that time - example, we grazed out a large area and drilled seed into it, shut it up for 120 days and that meant heaps of diversity (and we spent money and time as well). We had 600 hoggets this time last year and now there's 300. We have twice as many cattle or more.
Comparing the number of plant species now, to 6 months ago, to 12 months ago... tricky!
So many variables.
One thing that is "flagging" is that we really need to break out of that "rotational grazing" mindset again, it gets really comfortable going back to it, but it encourages grazing acceleration.
I think what we need to work towards is a less selective grazing with more recovery time, because we're leaving grass it tends to really be the grass the stock don't like.
I think it will fail, in time, if we continue to graze this way.
Diversity of plants can be hard to peg because of how they interact with one another (allelopathy for instance), their life span, their preferred conditions, etc. I'm reminded of a story from a friend of them putting a three seed mix in a field. Within a few years it was almost 3 different crops. Plants on the hilltop, plants on the hillside, plants in the bottom, because each had different conditions the plants preferred. Just because you broadcast a 28 species mix in a spot doesn't mean all 28 are going to like it there. Also, some plants just don't do well being grazed or have slower recovery, so even if they establish you're going to end up grazing some right out and some that react well to grazing are going to flourish and outcompete others. Grazing isn't the answer for everything, there's always going to be some spots and some plants that don't do as well with some grazing techniques.
My recent comment on diversity was more on diversity of location? I guess location would be the best fitting word I can think of right now. Maybe diversity of ecosystem.
I'm on a small packet of land for the most part. The acreage is only 12 acres give or take. Yet in these 12 acres I have some very different ecosystems. In the back is a pothole, in the middle is a swale, one pasture is very dry and native type plants, out back is more tame grasses, lots of timothy and brome, various tree lines. Now I'm too overstocked to manage them all as I would like - which is a whole other battle LOL but obviously I can't treat the pothole like the swale like the native like the tame, like the trees. Each is going to require different things, each is going to give different benefits. The tame grasses have great spring growth and given half decent rainfall can be grazed multiple times a year. The native grasses are not cool season growers, they're warm season, they don't tolerate heavy grazing well and need longer recovery times. Their bonus is they're made for the shitty rainfall we can get here. The swale helps catch snowmelt and provide better spring moisture; it's also my main sacrifice pasture and because of it's moisture catching, can take a beating that other areas can't. The pothole is handy as then I don't have to supply water to the animals and can lock them up there - however it isn't a healthy riparian area because I don't have it fenced off. Hopefully one day. So they can go in it whenever they want. They don't graze it much, those grasses aren't their preferred ones, but they do beat up the trees and make it a puggy, muddy mess. Riparian areas are best grazed when they're dryer or frozen and for short periods of time, so it's better to have them fenced off to allow control over grazing. When they're at their greenest and tallest isn't necessarily the best time for the soil to put animals in (very similar to saturated locations), and animals should be run through fairly quick if it is wet so they don't punch it out too much. My tree lines are kind of similar in that I don't want the cows to park in them and beat up the trees and just cause havoc. Those are essential wind breaks that I want to stay healthy.
So if and when I do get in the groove of rotating, I can't just do equal times everywhere, all in the same orders. I don't want my acreage to be all the same thing. Normally it would be the chosen path for pastures here to be predominantly tame forage or native grasses. Equal rotation, equal ability to graze, equal production, consistent. But I don't have that and I don't want that. I want different ecosystems on my place, so I can't treat them all the same. I want diversity in my ecosystems.
I could just say screw the pothole, I want it to be good grass they like to eat, and pump it out every spring. I could say screw the trees, I want that to be good grass they want to graze all the time, and push them down. But why? That would actually be making more work for myself, fighting against nature in many ways.
I live on the prairies, a place people see as just flat and dry and empty, but it's not. It's full of little ecosystems of potholes and creeks and swales and coulees and bluffs. It's full of diversity, exceeding even rainforests for diversity within an acre. For the landscape to properly function it needs those different ecosystems. We can't just make it all the most productive and generic we can and then sit back and wonder why it's not functioning well and requires so much management on our part. Managing my grazing so that I can have the plants I want yet trying to iron fist other ecosystems from popping up because they aren't the plants I want isn't regenerative, it's just the same old stuff. Yeah I might have healthier soil because I have a polycrop of grass instead of a monocrop, but I'd still be wrestling with nature and probably usually losing.
NZDan
Member
- Location
- Broomfield, New Zealand
We got 35mm of rain yesterday, pennies from heaven,
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
It's all soooo... contextual, eh?All my animals are pets. I actually received a recent lecture from the vet about naming them all
Diversity of plants can be hard to peg because of how they interact with one another (allelopathy for instance), their life span, their preferred conditions, etc. I'm reminded of a story from a friend of them putting a three seed mix in a field. Within a few years it was almost 3 different crops. Plants on the hilltop, plants on the hillside, plants in the bottom, because each had different conditions the plants preferred. Just because you broadcast a 28 species mix in a spot doesn't mean all 28 are going to like it there. Also, some plants just don't do well being grazed or have slower recovery, so even if they establish you're going to end up grazing some right out and some that react well to grazing are going to flourish and outcompete others. Grazing isn't the answer for everything, there's always going to be some spots and some plants that don't do as well with some grazing techniques.
My recent comment on diversity was more on diversity of location? I guess location would be the best fitting word I can think of right now. Maybe diversity of ecosystem.
I'm on a small packet of land for the most part. The acreage is only 12 acres give or take. Yet in these 12 acres I have some very different ecosystems. In the back is a pothole, in the middle is a swale, one pasture is very dry and native type plants, out back is more tame grasses, lots of timothy and brome, various tree lines. Now I'm too overstocked to manage them all as I would like - which is a whole other battle LOL but obviously I can't treat the pothole like the swale like the native like the tame, like the trees. Each is going to require different things, each is going to give different benefits. The tame grasses have great spring growth and given half decent rainfall can be grazed multiple times a year. The native grasses are not cool season growers, they're warm season, they don't tolerate heavy grazing well and need longer recovery times. Their bonus is they're made for the shitty rainfall we can get here. The swale helps catch snowmelt and provide better spring moisture; it's also my main sacrifice pasture and because of it's moisture catching, can take a beating that other areas can't. The pothole is handy as then I don't have to supply water to the animals and can lock them up there - however it isn't a healthy riparian area because I don't have it fenced off. Hopefully one day. So they can go in it whenever they want. They don't graze it much, those grasses aren't their preferred ones, but they do beat up the trees and make it a puggy, muddy mess. Riparian areas are best grazed when they're dryer or frozen and for short periods of time, so it's better to have them fenced off to allow control over grazing. When they're at their greenest and tallest isn't necessarily the best time for the soil to put animals in (very similar to saturated locations), and animals should be run through fairly quick if it is wet so they don't punch it out too much. My tree lines are kind of similar in that I don't want the cows to park in them and beat up the trees and just cause havoc. Those are essential wind breaks that I want to stay healthy.
So if and when I do get in the groove of rotating, I can't just do equal times everywhere, all in the same orders. I don't want my acreage to be all the same thing. Normally it would be the chosen path for pastures here to be predominantly tame forage or native grasses. Equal rotation, equal ability to graze, equal production, consistent. But I don't have that and I don't want that. I want different ecosystems on my place, so I can't treat them all the same. I want diversity in my ecosystems.
I could just say screw the pothole, I want it to be good grass they like to eat, and pump it out every spring. I could say screw the trees, I want that to be good grass they want to graze all the time, and push them down. But why? That would actually be making more work for myself, fighting against nature in many ways.
I live on the prairies, a place people see as just flat and dry and empty, but it's not. It's full of little ecosystems of potholes and creeks and swales and coulees and bluffs. It's full of diversity, exceeding even rainforests for diversity within an acre. For the landscape to properly function it needs those different ecosystems. We can't just make it all the most productive and generic we can and then sit back and wonder why it's not functioning well and requires so much management on our part. Managing my grazing so that I can have the plants I want yet trying to iron fist other ecosystems from popping up because they aren't the plants I want isn't regenerative, it's just the same old stuff. Yeah I might have healthier soil because I have a polycrop of grass instead of a monocrop, but I'd still be wrestling with nature and probably usually losing.
A few elephants, lightning, maybe a good earthquake, fire.... great if I've got all my animals in fenced a tiny square. Some "resilient system" then?
I might think that I got "time and space" just right, but it can rapidly prove otherwise.
Some of the best "stuff we've done" here hasn't been grazing or fencing at all, rather pulling out fences and resting areas.
Makes me wonder just how much rest "we" can afford ?
Obviously I'm not going to get 1000 cattle here for 3 weeks just to truck them home again, but that would be pretty suitable. Would love to ask my neighbour but he plain can't afford it.
Even looking at the area that's fenced off to form a treeline, it shows just how far short of full "plant expression" we are with our too-much-too-often grazing. So we have a ways to go!
We're told that grazing is causing environmental problems (hard to deny that) and that the answer is to simply not graze areas, ie take it out of production.
We took our business out of "production" by selling a service instead of goods, so not grazing is then slightly problematic - it's our business!
I reckon that we can still shift over to a grazing frequency that's more like yours than our old one and have a business that pays for the land. It just means more animals up and down the ramp than what we do now.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Bloody good! We had a proper cloudburst here, maybe 20mm in ten minutes? And it rained overnight as well.
It poured while we were at Mum's exchanging gifts, we got 4km up the road and it was dry, really localised.
exmoor dave
Member
- Location
- exmoor, uk
Happy Christmas all you Hippies 
