"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Fenwick]

Grazing is just one tool, how many books do you read about "rest"?

I've got a post coming about that Subject, which ties back to total grazing, and thé 3hr dick Richardson talk.

Whats happening during périods of rest is my topic of interest right now. Got any trails for me @Kiwi Pete ? I'm not finding much on thé net.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I've got a post coming about that Subject, which ties back to total grazing, and thé 3hr dick Richardson talk.

Whats happening during périods of rest is my topic of interest right now. Got any trails for me @Kiwi Pete ? I'm not finding much on thé net.

Limited trials because we've been delayed with the destocking a little - so it's really down to roadside verges that we've grazed to different levels and then "set-aside".

For diversity, 150+ days is optimum, recovery has definitely become rest in our climate.
And the peak recovery ie grazing point ie "crest of the wave" is about 85-90 days, and that's what our ' 'rotation speed' or planned recovery has been.

We're actually remarkably close to that despite being almost overstocked for that speed, if we didn't have that chart we would be about 45 days but I stuck to it and here we are!

Because I don't measure the pasture it's only by eye, but we have beautiful leafy but mature pasture to graze, in height it is about 25-38 cm tall depending on the fertility and dominant grass species of the area. What is really interesting to observe is that the legume goes crazy once the area is grazed and it takes a good 40 days for the sward to balance, which is about where we were this time last year from my notes so by pushing it out to 50 days last time, we have about double the grazing days per ha.

Typical sigmoid curve stuff but in our pasture, it is almost a double curve; easy to see the clover, and graze it, and miss the grass' 'blaze of growth'?

I'm really pleased that I didn't go with the trend of 60 cells per technosystem and went with 80, because in reality that suits our slower pasture growth (old pasture, unfertilised) and we will likely use 120 cells per mob much of the time anyway (3 lanes each) or use all the big systems with one mob, 240 shifts per rotation

I just want to start the season again and run different probes with even higher utilisation rates and longer recovery now I've seen the results of this season, hindsight is "2020" (and nearly as dry as any other BTW)

Next season's plan is to go no faster in the spring than 40 days around, so that we can go to 60 to 80 to 120 and cut 3 whole rotations out - this will allow our SR to increase quite markedly - and being rid of sheep, means we haven't got a stock class undermining our efforts with the cattle

It's really difficult to "be scientific" here because we have so many variables with the stock we've run and how we calculate our "stock unit" can be open to interpretation. We could call a 400kg bovine gaining 1.2kg/day our "base" but if we are understocked then we can have them consume more and grow more, and at higher stocking rates this can make quite a difference to our "animal grazing days per hectare" figure compared to a farm which has the same size cattle year in year out.

Remember a while ago I came up with "a tipping point happens at or around 200,000kg/ha", I've seen nothing yet to make me withdraw or amend that statement. No matter the utilisation % or rotation speed from 22 days out to 88.. I stand by that - in our context I wouldn't want to go under that density.
Maybe 220,000 for safety's sake.

Under that, pasture in the spring can still be overgrazed regardless of management and performance goals.

This is pushing me more and more towards keeping the mobs in the technosystem larger and less, to leverage our time input even with the new infrastructure - unless we were to run bull beef, in which case I'd use smaller mobs of maybe 30 bulls to keep them relaxed for efficient weightgain on low intakes.

I think we will run as many kilo of cattle on 70ac in techno as we could on 104ac under conventional 'string and steps' AMP grazing, just because of never compromising that minimum density.

The intent really must be to "pick a path" and either do a Jim Gerrish or a Jim Elizondo, and for the sake of our pasture it will be the latter.

 

[Jonny B88]

I have listened to Nicole Masters a couple of times on the working cows podcast. She is brilliantly easy and simple to listen to and understand. Certainly made me completely rethink ‘weeds’.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I have listened to Nicole Masters a couple of times on the working cows podcast. She is brilliantly easy and simple to listen to and understand. Certainly made me completely rethink ‘weeds’.

That's great - they're just "other plants" not really weeds at all. They're only weeds because our operating costs might be too high ??


I have hundreds of tools in the workshop that we don't "use" much and they cost us money to buy, these other plants that our stock don't use much are free!
We have implements we don't use at all, a 540m² polytunnel that only really gets used to dry the washing;

it beats me (now!!!) why I got so concerned about having a few free plants on the landscape

... like "everything"was about animal food and nothing could be about making the soil deeper or giving the bumblebees something to work on after the mob had been through, or covering up where we got the grazing wrong or an experiment blew up. We really cannot expect our management and a few plants out of a bag to do all the things we need happening, or feed all the life we have on our farm

 

[awkward]

Great stuff their Pete , how low are the residuals you are aiming for , or is it a case of changing that throughout the grazing season

 

[som farmer]

if using mob grazing, on a paddock, and if legumes are present as well, that paddock is getting a concentrated dose of sh1t, rather than same amount, spread over a larger area, taking longer. So with legume N, does that concentrated dollop, give the plants a 'big boost', similar to an application of N fert. KP said his legumes go crazy, once the paddock is grazed, is this due to the fact that legumes already have available N in house, or due to the fact that the grass has been 'traumatised' by either grazing, or trampling, and needs a bit longer to get going again, to use the nutrients supplied by Legume N and sh1t value, thus giving legumes a head start.
We all know pasture responds to a coating of slurry, or fym, and perhaps the best thing about NVZ regs, is making us realise the nutrient value of that waste product. What i am trying to get to, is mob grazing, or on/off, mimic the original grazing by wild animals, and plants then, relied on that concentrated dollop of manure, and the same 'system' is being replicated by us now, albeit on a different time basis. And is that one of the reasons we find 'natural' grasses actually perform better than rye grass, in mob grazing, or perhaps the relentless re-appearance of weeds, is actually due to the rye grass being unable to compete with them, thinning grass,= more weeds. That is why we reseed. Not very sure that i have expressed my thoughts very well, but, hope some answers appear.

 

[onesiedale]

Thank you for the recommendations FTLOS has been on my wish list for a while and I've now added David's book too. I hadn't bought a book in so long and so was recently were shocked at the prices of some!

I've got ebooks of Joel Salatin's works as well to get through along with a few permaculture "bibles" I picked up before learning about Holistic Ag.

So far my wish list consists is below, but have no idea if they are "MUST READS" or not.

• The Art and Science of Grazing: How Grass Farmers Can Create Sustainable Systems for Healthy Animals and Farm Ecosystems - Sarah Flack
• MAN, CATTLE and VELD - Johann Zietsman
• A Soil Owner's Manual: How to Restore and Maintain Soil Health - Jon Stika
• Restoration Agriculture 1st edition by Mark Shepard (2013) Paperback - Mark Shepard
• Comeback Farms - Greg Judy
• The Lean Farm - Ben Hartman - I believe I saw that mentioned in some of the earlier pages in this thread.

I'm still making my way through this thread, so apologies if the has come up many pages before, probably the most useful farming thread I've seen in years.

@newbie_farmer as you are reading through make sure that you use the bookmark function. you will definitely want to go back to some posts

 

[Blaithin]

It'd be a really interesting thing to ask the great buying public about.

Have you read Jared Diamond's "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race"? Or was it @Blaithin?

No, I haven't read that one.

I've read Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari which has a section along the same thought.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

No, I haven't read that one.

I've read Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari which has a section along the same thought.

It's a very "confronting" thought!

How's it going up there?

 

[Blaithin]

It's a very "confronting" thought!

How's it going up there?

I've brought it up around a few farmers. Reactions vary Some have good, introspective discussions about it. Most get defensive.

It's warmed up here. Enjoying the weather, getting closer to calving, starting to get the spring itch.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Great stuff their Pete , how low are the residuals you are aiming for , or is it a case of changing that throughout the grazing season

It changes a bit! But not as much as other years, maybe, because I don't think we need to go as fast as other years now things are improving.

That's what I meant by "pick a path" I guess.

(Either leave grass for resilience, or leave time for resilience)

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I've brought it up around a few farmers. Reactions vary Some have good, introspective discussions about it. Most get defensive.

It's warmed up here. Enjoying the weather, getting closer to calving, starting to get the spring itch.

I have found the same, and it's sometimes surprising who agrees.
I had a farmer virtually grab me and give me a hug because he had that thought "years ago, boy" and was always too frightened to speak out because it flies in the face of so much and so many.
Especially when you're a farmer! A bit of dissonance.

Glad you're getting a bit more warmth, but I suppose it translates to "a bit less cold".
It's definitely that time of year... although it's still warm and pretty dry here. A bit of rain in early Jan and basically zip since.

 

[Blaithin]

I've got a post coming about that Subject, which ties back to total grazing, and thé 3hr dick Richardson talk.

Whats happening during périods of rest is my topic of interest right now. Got any trails for me @Kiwi Pete ? I'm not finding much on thé net.

I did a brief look at didn't find anything but it could require some digging. For some reason the University research is not easy to search.

U of A Rangeland Research has ranches they use to conduct such studies. The one I was at was Stavely where they have sections that haven't been grazed in decades and then various amounts of animal units per year and rest, right up to constant grazing. They monitor soil and plant health in these different settings. Alas... Stavely isn't even on their website But you might be able to find mention of rest periods in the following links somewhere.

RRI Reports - Rangeland Research Institute (RRI)

2016-2017 Annual Report 2017-2018 Annual Report 2018-2019 Annual Report

rri.ualberta.ca

Graduate Theses - Rangeland Research Institute (RRI)

Graduate student theses produced at the University of Alberta that relate to rangelands are listed in the table below. Click on the title to view or download a copy of the thesis. The table is searchable by keywords (e.g. '2018 Read More ...

rri.ualberta.ca

 

[Crofter64]

It depends what you want out of books as well,; I like books that stop my direction of travel (kinda like the past few pages of this thread, sorry guys) rather than just keep the echo-chamber-bias-confirmation thing going

I agree with you on that one Pete. I find after a while all the books seem to say the same thing with different words as though we have finally arrived at a solution. I don’t think there will ever be a ‘solution’ just a process and that process is mostly based on deep observation of ones own land and its surroundings. I own or have read most of the books on @newbie_farmer’s list- they are road maps but not the destination. I particularly like the books written in the inter war , and shortly after ww2 period: Frank Newman, Friend Sykes, George Hamilton, Aldo Leopold, Louis Bromfield, André Voisin, Albert Howard,Eve Balfour. They were all masters of their trade. Grounded, Successful ,respected as professionals. They weren’t marginals trying to justify their existence. There was a confidence in their writing that I no longer see in farming circles- a confidence in their own ability, understanding and application .There has been a long standing bias against farmers in society , people thinking that someone becomes a farmer because he’s not competent enough to do anything else. These authors could have been very successful at any other profession because they were intelligent, disciplined and capable ( and some did have other work as well ) but they had a calling to be farmers, and master farmers to boot. Just imagine if farmers were considered professionals like doctors , lawyers and accountants?

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I agree with you on that one Pete. I find after a while all the books seem to say the same thing with different words as though we have finally arrived at a solution. I don’t think there will ever be a ‘solution’ just a process and that process is mostly based on deep observation of ones own land and its surroundings. I own or have read most of the books on @newbie_farmer’s list- they are road maps but not the destination. I particularly like the books written in the inter war , and shortly after ww2 period: Frank Newman, Friend Sykes, George Hamilton, Aldo Leopold, Louis Bromfield, André Voisin, Albert Howard,Eve Balfour. They were all masters of their trade. Grounded, Successful ,respected as professionals. They weren’t marginals trying to justify their existence. There was a confidence in their writing that I no longer see in farming circles- a confidence in their own ability, understanding and application .There has been a long standing bias against farmers in society , people thinking that someone becomes a farmer because he’s not competent enough to do anything else. These authors could have been very successful at any other profession because they were intelligent, disciplined and capable ( and some did have other work as well ) but they had a calling to be farmers, and master farmers to boot. Just imagine if farmers were considered professionals like doctors , lawyers and accountants?

Farming is a profession, just not a valued one.

A bit tangential but here in England you need a reference from a "person of professional standing" to obtain a firearm licence. Farmers are on the list of acceptable "professionals".

 

[Fenwick]

I agree with you on that one Pete. I find after a while all the books seem to say the same thing with different words as though we have finally arrived at a solution.

To be fair that list is pretty diverse.

I do agree that most of the grazing books are all finding different ways to say the same thing. Basic rehashes (and globally inferior) of Voisins work nearly 70 odd years ago. But there is money to be made in books, and talks and youtube. Probably a lot more than in farming.

But there are exeptions. Elizondo Zietsman and Hand who have pretty much turned everything I though I knew on its head, and sent me down other rabbit holes, and it's all bloody exciting!

 

[Fenwick]

So I wanted to go back to that loooong talk by dick Richardson. Which at first I had a little trouble getting into.

It ended up being really interesting!

Turns out I didn't know what Humus was! I'm a but embarrassed to say that, having studyed biological science at Uni

However after spending 3 odd hours drumming in the importance of root exudates compared to litter. The importance of keeping the grass young and growing, pumping out liquid carbon. Having the stock performing well. The grasses tillering etc. He almost off handedly mentioned sabbatical fallow. 'Your PH will jump from 4.8 to 6.5 and the 'biology will sort all that out'. (i might have miss quoted the figures???) and I was left thinking what! hang on, I want more of that!

Some biological processes are happening; that are really important during the 'rest period' of course there is no rest, things are whirring along, perhaps even more so than when the stock are present?

It is interesting to note that aside from stock density, Richardson and Elizondo have the same grazing pattern including Sabbatical fallows. Graze A-Z but when A is ready and your'e at N forget M-Z. etc. Then rotate this process yearly so that all paddocks are treated the same in the long term.

I like this, as you can't chase the grass in spring and you'll end up topping or grazing badly or as pete said wasting grass and running low stock numbers (or buying in all your hay, which when you think about it is the same thing).

Whats happening in the soil during the fallow period? Plenty of historical quotes about fallow, not much recent stuff. The only thing I've seen is a couple of articles about Mangapiri downs near @Kiwi Pete (do you know them?) and a couple of others bits and bobs from north America.

 

[StormurShepherd]

@newbie_farmer as you are reading through make sure that you use the bookmark function. you will definitely want to go back to some posts

Thank you I hadn't noticed that function!

And thank you again to those recommending reading. I've bought what I can afford to for now and will try find PDFs on the rest

Since finding out about this side of farming its made me feel a lot more positive and confident given that before I felt like the outsider, odd one out and way behind the curve because I've not spent the first 27 something years of my life on a farm and then 7 years trying to catch up with "traditional" methods and ways I felt even didn't make sense in between my surgeries and work etc.

But with starting with a fresh pair of eyes and my only previous farming experience of being an organic farm for eggs and potatoes, plus lambing contracts on different farms and places with the odd sheep job here and there, I feel like a sponge soaking up the things that work/don't work or good ideas but bad implementation and lessons learned from each place that myself and others can learn from and save time, money and livestock.

 

[sheepdogtrail]

I have not read anything in a dozen years or so. Most anyone who can read, comprehend and have some form of memory can be a book farmer. I have well over 50,000 hours of keeping my head down looking at soil, nature and genetics. For me, that was the best way to learn.

I cerntainly recommend education. If reading is all you can do, then please read and try to learn what you can. If you have access to single square foot of land then experiment. What you learn in that square foot will be a lot more valuable in the long run as it will be directly linked to you, your time and location.

I still find a book I read 14 years ago or so, the most helpful for folks wanting to improve the grassland and its environment. That is: The Clifton Park System of Farming and laying down land to grass a guide to landlords, tenants and land legislators

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/elliot.pdf

First edition was published in 1897. The last revision was in 1907.

 

[Crofter64]

Thank you I hadn't noticed that function!

And thank you again to those recommending reading. I've bought what I can afford to for now and will try find PDFs on the rest

Since finding out about this side of farming its made me feel a lot more positive and confident given that before I felt like the outsider, odd one out and way behind the curve because I've not spent the first 27 something years of my life on a farm and then 7 years trying to catch up with "traditional" methods and ways I felt even didn't make sense in between my surgeries and work etc.

But with starting with a fresh pair of eyes and my only previous farming experience of being an organic farm for eggs and potatoes, plus lambing contracts on different farms and places with the odd sheep job here and there, I feel like a sponge soaking up the things that work/don't work or good ideas but bad implementation and lessons learned from each place that myself and others can learn from and save time, money and livestock.

I have read a lot of books from the Soil and Health library situated in Australia. They have different copyright laws there and so you can download certain books in their entirety as PDFs. Also Journey to forever web site gives access to many other books as well.