Infertile ram

[cowboysupper]

It's been a long long time since I received a call from someone we sold a ram too to discuss its fertility. Indeed the last ram we took back a ram for apparent infertility was later tested by us and was 100%.

So I'm naturally a little sceptical about the phone call I received over the weekend.

The ram lamb in question was sold last autumn, apparently showed questionable maturity that season so wasn't used on the advice of this gentlemans vet.

He was getting ready to use him again some of these weeks so had him tested recently by the vet. As far as I know he was probed once and tested. The results, not overly positive, maybe a 2/5.

I'll speak to the vet some of these days, but I'm scratching my head a little as to what to do. If I had this phone call 12 months ago we could have got another ram for him or a refund. But it's 12 months later and I've no way of knowing what has happened to him during that time.

I think he should be tested again, preferably not with the probe, but if it's not positive again, where do I go?

Doesn't help that he's now at the opposite side of the country!

 

[bovine]

After a year its not your problem, so much can happen

 

[Coximus]

Too long. It happens to us all. I'd accept I'd been slow testing at a yead

 

[Newby]

It happens to us all.

Speak for yourself, nothing wrong here

 

[Coximus]

Defeat

 

[neilo]

Had him retested. If it's the first sample taken after a long period, it's often cull of cr*p and debris. If he's still wrong, I'd be inclined to replace him. Technically, if he gets a ewe in lamb, which a 2/5 semen sample probably would, then he is 'fertile'.

'Questionable maturity' seems an odd reason not to use a ram lamb, if the vendor had obviously considered him mature enough to buy, assuming the term referred to the animal rather than a semen sample. But then folk have different ideas. I know one chap that buys ram lambs but doesn't use them until shearlings, as ram lambs sire smaller lambs.

 

[cowboysupper]

Had him retested. If it's the first sample taken after a long period, it's often cull of cr*p and debris. If he's still wrong, I'd be inclined to replace him. Technically, if he gets a ewe in lamb, which a 2/5 semen sample probably would, then he is 'fertile'.

'Questionable maturity' seems an odd reason not to use a ram lamb, if the vendor had obviously considered him mature enough to buy, assuming the term referred to the animal rather than a semen sample. But then folk have different ideas. I know one chap that buys ram lambs but doesn't use them until shearlings, as ram lambs sire smaller lambs.

Well, there is a catch. The ram lamb was used on a batch of sponged ewes. I believe he served one ewe (who subsequently had lambs) but wasn't showing much interest in the rest so was removed because of concerns about maturity. He hasn't been used since and was tested for the first time (in his life) last week.

I'll be suggesting that the ram is tested again, although there's not much time left as there's sponged ewes coming on this weekend.

Would you have any concerns about the vet using the probe? I know our AI company only uses it as a very last resort, but it seems to be standard practise at this guys vet practise.

 

[NZDan]

Sounds like he's had poor advice from his vet, what were the actual results?
IMHO get the ram tested again (properly) if he fails replace him(no refund only replace) and pay for the test, if he passes then the client pays the test cost and keeps the ram.

 

[NZDan]

After a year its not your problem, so much can happen

A years not long at all, I guarantee all my rams for three breeding seasons, the are sold for a purpose and fit for that purpose.

 

[jemski]

Sorry to hijack, but I have a May born ram lamb - when would be the earliest he can work...?

 

[yellowbelly]

He hasn't been used since and was tested for the first time (in his life) last week.

Definitely get him tested again - In my experience, when you turn out a tup at the start of the season, the first ewe he serves very often returns.That first dose can have been "sitting there" all summer.

The ram lamb was used on a batch of sponged ewes. I believe he served one ewe (who subsequently had lambs) but wasn't showing much interest

A ram lamb turned in to a batch of ewes that are all in season and crowding him can easily be intimidated.

Because ram breeders want to protect their reputations and don't want to get a bad name they feel almost honour bound to supply a replacement. This leads to some buyers taking the p!ss. We once sold a ram who was supposedly infertile so supplied a replacement and let them keep the original ram(saw the cull value to be a bit of compensation for them)
A few years later they dispersed their flock and low and behold they had ewes that were sired by the "infertile" ram listed in the catalogue

 

[andybk]

Sorry to hijack, but I have a May born ram lamb - when would be the earliest he can work...?

if hes fit well grown without being fat , probably 6 months though some need 8 months , i would use with caution and not leave him working for long

 

[jemski]

Ok pretty much as I thought - will be too late this year really but it's not a problem.

 

[andybk]

A years not long at all, I guarantee all my rams for three breeding seasons, the are sold for a purpose and fit for that purpose.

a lot can happen in 3 years , buyer attitude probably different here than NZ , infections and parasites fighting , ,If we get a problem which is very rare we tend to deal on a case by case basis .

 

[Sandpit Farm]

Ok pretty much as I thought - will be too late this year really but it's not a problem.

Although I've had one working at 18 weeks before being weaned! Not great!

 

[cowboysupper]

Thanks for all the comments.

If he was tested last week, how long again before re-testing?

If he were my own I'd probably be testing every 7-10 days (if it was just to blow out the cobwebs), 6 weeks if I knew he'd not been well.

In this instance all I can do is take the mans word that this ram has been healthy for the last 12 months.

 

[easyram1]

We give a 2 service season warranty against death from natural causes and obviously infertility ( ie buy a ram this year and our warranty lasts till the end of 2017). The customer is King

 

[neilo]

Thanks for all the comments.

If he was tested last week, how long again before re-testing?

If he were my own I'd probably be testing every 7-10 days (if it was just to blow out the cobwebs), 6 weeks if I knew he'd not been well.

In this instance all I can do is take the mans word that this ram has been healthy for the last 12 months.

Ideally, he wants sticking in with some cull ewes or something to empty out, then test after.
IIRC the wording in the Charollais Society warranty is that they have to have had the chance of serving naturally, not sponged ewes or AI. It's still very much down to the breeder as to how he deals with it, with some doing diddly squat and others taking a longer term view.

This lamb got a ewe in lamb, in fact 100% of the ewes he was allowed to serve, so it could be argued that he is/was fertile. By the next year, his fertility could have been compromised by a high temperature from infection, or overfeeding for showing, or any manner of other things, all of which some purchasers fail to disclose. Some have a reputation for playing the same trick repeatedly.

 

[neilo]

Sorry to hijack, but I have a May born ram lamb - when would be the earliest he can work...?

How well has he done?

I had an April born ram lamb get a ewe pregnant in mid-August last year, before weaning. I suspect it wouldn't happen if you wanted it to though.

The last 2 Highlander ram lambs I bought were April born and grass reared. They weighed 50kg a piece when I turned them out with 150 ewe lambs. They gained weight over the two cycles they were out and 85% or so of the ewe lambs conceived.

 

[jemski]

He has come off a harder farm than here, and has motored in the 3 weeks he's been here! I might chuck him in with a few ewe lambs and see.