Is it time to look again at Nicotinoid dressings to control flea beetle.

Against_the_grain

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
S.E
The Slate, known for contrarian viewpoints. The weight of scientific evidence is that certain neonics persist for a long time in the environment and are present in drinking water. No


It is the scale of field use that causes concern.

Pet collars will no doubt be further regulated in time to protect rivers. There is no evidence that the tiny levels in rivers cause harm but who knows?

Teppeki is not a neonic, it disrupts aphid feeding, incysyt, gazelle etc are neonics with very low activity on bees. They are very valuable in preventing resistance.
The BBC, known for populist hyperbole. What is clear from this is there is absolutely no appetite from the regulators for viewing things from a wider perspective and the unintended consequences are I think quite obviously far more damaging to the environment (ironically) and the economy.
 

Lowland1

Member
Mixed Farmer
£5 per loaf would price wheat value at around £4-5000/tonne!! The value of the flour in a loaf of bread is only about 10p for every £100 that wheat is £200/T 20p of flour in the loaf, £300/T 30p of flour in a loaf. Ukrainians are paying a far greater price for protecting their country than 20p on the value of a loaf.
Price of wheat in Kenya today £380 price of a 600g loaf of bread 50p.
 

Bogweevil

Member
The BBC, known for populist hyperbole. What is clear from this is there is absolutely no appetite from the regulators for viewing things from a wider perspective and the unintended consequences are I think quite obviously far more damaging to the environment (ironically) and the economy.

There is an official expert committee on pesticides who take a balanced look at the issues and advise DEFRA and HSE, the BBC have nothing to do with it.

You can see who is on the expert committee and read the minutes of their meetings on line.
 

Against_the_grain

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
S.E
The BBC and all MSM has a lot to answer for (not just in agriculture). The very way they report on issues or exaggerate stories leads to an extremely risk adverse approach by anyone whose balls may be on the line. Just look at the headlines relating to this issue when neo-nics were allowed back on beet. UK allows emergency use of bee harming noenicitinoid for example. Hardly balanced.
Im sorry but any committee set up to oversee legislation will be bias. They read the news and they dont want to be responsible. Their very existence relies on providing results and they will naturally be biased towards regulation.
Anyway we digress. You believe the hype if you want. I certainly haven't seen an abundance of bees since the ban.
 

essex man

Member
Location
colchester
£5 per loaf would price wheat value at around £4-5000/tonne!! The value of the flour in a loaf of bread is only about 10p for every £100 that wheat is £200/T 20p of flour in the loaf, £300/T 30p of flour in a loaf. Ukrainians are paying a far greater price for protecting their country than 20p on the value of a loaf.
Exactly! That's my point..re food affordability
 

Bogweevil

Member
The BBC and all MSM has a lot to answer for (not just in agriculture). The very way they report on issues or exaggerate stories leads to an extremely risk adverse approach by anyone whose balls may be on the line. Just look at the headlines relating to this issue when neo-nics were allowed back on beet. UK allows emergency use of bee harming noenicitinoid for example. Hardly balanced.
Im sorry but any committee set up to oversee legislation will be bias. They read the news and they dont want to be responsible. Their very existence relies on providing results and they will naturally be biased towards regulation.
Anyway we digress. You believe the hype if you want. I certainly haven't seen an abundance of bees since the ban.


It does harm bees and it was an emergency authorisation, and it is a story of wide interest. Some headlines from Sky

Bumblebees become addicted to neonicotinoid pesticides, study finds​


EU declares ban on bee-harming 'neonicotinoid' pesticide​

While those Trotskyists at the daily mail;

No sleep for busy beezzz: Pesticides used to protect crops from insects are keeping them awake at night - leading to lower survival rates



 
What’s are the ingredients of neonicotinoids?

A fudging nerve poison, basically. And resistance to them is already emerging in some countries.

The only logical step will be genetic engineering of crop plants but even this will eventually experience a degree of resistance as your pest organism can adapt more rapidly than your crop.

The sad thing is that the loss of key active ingredients means that fewer people will grow the niche flowering crops that bees and insects actually thrive upon.
 

Lowland1

Member
Mixed Farmer
(y) 10p/loaf must be sufficient to cover the baking, transport and retails costs in Kenya... here there is another 70p/loaf worth of costs/profits somewhere in the system :scratchhead:
It’s priced to what people can afford the staples here are bread and maize flour. There’s a lot of vomit inducing comments on this forum about making people go hungry so that they know where their food comes from or in order to force governments to aid farming but the truth of it is people go hungry when they’ve got no money. It’s unlikely that the people in the UK are going to starve they’ve got money and if they don’t the Government do it’s people in the third world with low incomes who will go hungry and look to migrate to the west legally or illegally. If you think you’re having it tough at the moment trust me you aren’t.
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
It’s priced to what people can afford the staples here are bread and maize flour. There’s a lot of vomit inducing comments on this forum about making people go hungry so that they know where their food comes from or in order to force governments to aid farming but the truth of it is people go hungry when they’ve got no money. It’s unlikely that the people in the UK are going to starve they’ve got money and if they don’t the Government do it’s people in the third world with low incomes who will go hungry and look to migrate to the west legally or illegally. If you think you’re having it tough at the moment trust me you aren’t.
Bread may be priced to what people can afford in Africa. In the UK it is priced to what allows people to also afford a new iphone every 6 months, have 2 cars less than 2 years old, 2 overseas holidays and eating out 4 times a week.... In Britain as farmers we are exposed to a constant barrage of critisim around food production by relatively affluent readers of the Guardian newspaper. These are the ones the calls some of us would like to go hungry for a while. You are correct of course though, in any food shortage it is always the poorest that go hungry first.
 
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Nigel Wellings

Member
What also antagonises me is I have a feeling that there is now a problem with a declining bee population in the UK since the loss of Neonics. The bees have lost 350 000 ha odd that was formerly a brilliant habitat for them. I heard this quoted from a beekeeper- so may be an element of truth to it.
Somebody more educated about bees than me may be able to comment better on this point.

I could well believe that UK bee population has declined due to lack of OSR caused by Neonics ban. Somewhat ironic!
 

Yale

Member
Livestock Farmer
I don’t really have an opinion on neonic dressings apart from on swede seed it was a valuable tool and avoided more damaging passes with insecticide.
And swedes generally don’t go to flower.

If there was data collected to prove the ban was right then there should be further data collected since the ban to either back it up or not.

Was the need for increased damaging passes of insecticides taken into account when trying to save a beleaguered crop?
 
What also antagonises me is I have a feeling that there is now a problem with a declining bee population in the UK since the loss of Neonics. The bees have lost 350 000 ha odd that was formerly a brilliant habitat for them. I heard this quoted from a beekeeper- so may be an element of truth to it.
Somebody more educated about bees than me may be able to comment better on this point.

I could well believe that UK bee population has declined due to lack of OSR caused by Neonics ban. Somewhat ironic!

This is the problem. Show me the thousands of hectares of OSR, of linseed and peas and beans that people no longer grow. No, easier to grow maize and shove it in a digester. The government/EU bans or revokes actives or brings in ridiculous rules like comparative assessment and then wonder why minority crops just don't exist.
 
It’s priced to what people can afford the staples here are bread and maize flour. There’s a lot of vomit inducing comments on this forum about making people go hungry so that they know where their food comes from or in order to force governments to aid farming but the truth of it is people go hungry when they’ve got no money. It’s unlikely that the people in the UK are going to starve they’ve got money and if they don’t the Government do it’s people in the third world with low incomes who will go hungry and look to migrate to the west legally or illegally. If you think you’re having it tough at the moment trust me you aren’t.

I can see a far bigger Arab spring in the pipeline if this continues.
 

Lowland1

Member
Mixed Farmer
Bread may be priced to what people can afford in Africa. In the UK it is priced to what allows people to also afford a new iphone every 6 months, have 2 cars less than 2 years old, 2 overseas holidays and eating out 4 times a week.... In Britain as farmers we are exposed to a constant barrage of critisim around food production by relatively affluent readers of the Guardian newspaper. These are the ones the calls some of us would like to go hungry for a while. You are correct of course though, in any food shortage it is always the poorest that go hungry first.
The loss of neonicontinoids means that I cannot use rape as a break crop in the UK which makes growing cereals harder. Considering the tiny amount used per kilo and the size of an oilseed rape plant I am at a loss to work out the connection between this and a declining bee population and not using the treatment on beet is totally mental. The decline in bee numbers i think comes from a loss of habitat caused by a lack of mixed cropping both on arable and livestock farms basically too much monoculture driven by government support policies. The UK agriculture policy is stupid and has been for many years but this is mainly due to the declining numbers directly involved in agriculture. In Kenya people spend over 50% of their incomes on food which means they have little to spend on anything else which means very little economic activity. The two cars and two holidays drive the economy and pays wages when people can’t buy their second car or go on holiday it means that the people associated with those will lose their jobs with all the knock on affects of that. A bit more money for farming would be nice but not at the risk of the destruction of the status quo we have now. I see people who are properly hungry everyday and I've seen what happens when a society breaks down (Kenya 2008) it's not good.
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
The loss of neonicontinoids means that I cannot use rape as a break crop in the UK which makes growing cereals harder. Considering the tiny amount used per kilo and the size of an oilseed rape plant I am at a loss to work out the connection between this and a declining bee population and not using the treatment on beet is totally mental. The decline in bee numbers i think comes from a loss of habitat caused by a lack of mixed cropping both on arable and livestock farms basically too much monoculture driven by government support policies. The UK agriculture policy is stupid and has been for many years but this is mainly due to the declining numbers directly involved in agriculture. In Kenya people spend over 50% of their incomes on food which means they have little to spend on anything else which means very little economic activity. The two cars and two holidays drive the economy and pays wages when people can’t buy their second car or go on holiday it means that the people associated with those will lose their jobs with all the knock on affects of that. A bit more money for farming would be nice but not at the risk of the destruction of the status quo we have now. I see people who are properly hungry everyday and I've seen what happens when a society breaks down (Kenya 2008) it's not good.
I don't disagree with you. Anecdotally I think declining bee population may have more a lot to do with changing weather patterns. Seems now we get a hot week in March this wakes bees too early, they emerge to find there is fk all nectar around and they quickly burn up their reserves and die. On the recent Greenpeace FB threads about neonics there were quite a few members of the pubic reporting they had been finding lots of dead or dying bees and associating it with the government decision to "allow bee killing chemical"... I did have to point out it would be rather difficult for all those bees to have left their woodlands and public parks, found sealed bags of treated sugar beet seed, somehow consumed the seed dressing and then flown back to their woodland and parks... :rolleyes:
 
The loss of neonicontinoids means that I cannot use rape as a break crop in the UK which makes growing cereals harder. Considering the tiny amount used per kilo and the size of an oilseed rape plant I am at a loss to work out the connection between this and a declining bee population and not using the treatment on beet is totally mental. The decline in bee numbers i think comes from a loss of habitat caused by a lack of mixed cropping both on arable and livestock farms basically too much monoculture driven by government support policies. The UK agriculture policy is stupid and has been for many years but this is mainly due to the declining numbers directly involved in agriculture. In Kenya people spend over 50% of their incomes on food which means they have little to spend on anything else which means very little economic activity. The two cars and two holidays drive the economy and pays wages when people can’t buy their second car or go on holiday it means that the people associated with those will lose their jobs with all the knock on affects of that. A bit more money for farming would be nice but not at the risk of the destruction of the status quo we have now. I see people who are properly hungry everyday and I've seen what happens when a society breaks down (Kenya 2008) it's not good.

The problem is that neonics probably have another 10 years of useful life in them anyway- there is already resistance to them in other parts of the world. What we need is GM OSR and we need it now.
 

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