Is there a DD path for me?

[e3120]

I feel I'm entering the lion's den here, so please be gentle on a 100% plougher.

That's only true in so far as all cultivations are done with that tool, but there are 4-7 year leys in the mix, mostly grazed with fattening cattle. My cereals are the break and are 1 or 2 wheats followed by 0, 1 or 2 winter barleys. All straw baled and returned, along with another twice as much, as muck, 90% ahead of plough. Cereal acreage is about 100ac, will rise to 130-140 to reduce leys to less than 5 years, with an eye on possible tighter restrictions on PP in a new regime.

Land is heavy and grows great grass but is by no means borderline arable. Comfortable 10t average territory. Currently plough and furrow press (best time to work this land) and combi 24 hours drying later. Toughest seedbed is after grass when it turns up bone dry in an average year. Paddle rollers ahead of combi makes an acceptable seedbed.

I'd like to perserve the structure of the grass, as well as reducing establishment effort. The grass is pretty solid with hoof/muck traffic but not matted like a 20 year ley, especially dedicated silage ground. No sheep, so far from bowling-green short. Grass is the primary crop, so I can't afford to loose a chunk of the season. Currently the cattle and drill will often be in the field in the same week.

I'd imagine that I might want to plough ahead of WB to manage volunteers, but open to suggestion.

On the small area, only a single tool is likely to be viable. I had thought of converting my combi into something like the Bramleys and try to rip up the grass with it in 1 or 2 passes. A long way from DD I know, but I could imagine using the different elements to varying degrees depending on the circumstances. Would the vaddy coulters on it ever stand a chance of cutting in on their own? Or should I be thinking of a disc drill?

Oh, and I'm generally adverse to using contractors for timeliness and control freak reasons.

 

[rob1]

A simtech would do the job welland can dd or follow the plough or cultivator and it moves some of the dying grass away from the seed.They are cheaper than many drills and do a good job drilling grass too,nice and simple too. Wouldnt want to use a combi to stir the grass up,it would be hard to consolidate after drilling,as for muck mine drills through it quite happily

 

[Simon Chiles]

I feel I'm entering the lion's den here, so please be gentle on a 100% plougher.

That's only true in so far as all cultivations are done with that tool, but there are 4-7 year leys in the mix, mostly grazed with fattening cattle. My cereals are the break and are 1 or 2 wheats followed by 0, 1 or 2 winter barleys. All straw baled and returned, along with another twice as much, as muck, 90% ahead of plough. Cereal acreage is about 100ac, will rise to 130-140 to reduce leys to less than 5 years, with an eye on possible tighter restrictions on PP in a new regime.

Land is heavy and grows great grass but is by no means borderline arable. Comfortable 10t average territory. Currently plough and furrow press (best time to work this land) and combi 24 hours drying later. Toughest seedbed is after grass when it turns up bone dry in an average year. Paddle rollers ahead of combi makes an acceptable seedbed.

I'd like to perserve the structure of the grass, as well as reducing establishment effort. The grass is pretty solid with hoof/muck traffic but not matted like a 20 year ley, especially dedicated silage ground. No sheep, so far from bowling-green short. Grass is the primary crop, so I can't afford to loose a chunk of the season. Currently the cattle and drill will often be in the field in the same week.

I'd imagine that I might want to plough ahead of WB to manage volunteers, but open to suggestion.

On the small area, only a single tool is likely to be viable. I had thought of converting my combi into something like the Bramleys and try to rip up the grass with it in 1 or 2 passes. A long way from DD I know, but I could imagine using the different elements to varying degrees depending on the circumstances. Would the vaddy coulters on it ever stand a chance of cutting in on their own? Or should I be thinking of a disc drill?

Oh, and I'm generally adverse to using contractors for timeliness and control freak reasons.

I wouldn’t get too hung up on the plough vs dd if I were you. The most important thing IMO is to concentrate on raising the OM level of your soil. The fact that you’ve got 5 year grass leys and are plastering your soil with FYM suggests to me that you are probably doing just that. I’d imagine that after grass you’d have some sort of compaction problem at 4 or 5 inches deep which would rule out dd’ing in the first year anyway. Personally I think you need to vary the rotation a bit, after all everything you grow is graminaceous. Why not have Lupins or beans as a break especially as you could use them to feed to your cattle. If you went for the Lupins or spring beans you could have a cheap cover crop overwinter to plough in to help with the OM. In your situation I’d be trying to help the job by not ploughing too deep. On top of all that with your adversion to using a contractor I’d question whether 100 acres or so could justify a half reasonable direct drill, after all if you buy a drill and keep the plough/ ph combi you’re just increasing your costs.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Err, I have to admit to being a bit confused when it comes to compaction ???
Only 2 things cause compaction - excessive traffic & lack of OM

How can ploughing help reduce compaction ?
Surely it makes it worse ?

PS - I was a ploughman in the U.K. for about 3 years a lifetime ago & was always horrified at what we were doing to the soil then

PPS - I have a nearly 30 year history of min & zero till so am probably a bit biased . . .

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I wouldn’t get too hung up on the plough vs dd if I were you. The most important thing IMO is to concentrate on raising the OM level of your soil. The fact that you’ve got 5 year grass leys and are plastering your soil with FYM suggests to me that you are probably doing just that. I’d imagine that after grass you’d have some sort of compaction problem at 4 or 5 inches deep which would rule out dd’ing in the first year anyway. Personally I think you need to vary the rotation a bit, after all everything you grow is graminaceous. Why not have Lupins or beans as a break especially as you could use them to feed to your cattle. If you went for the Lupins or spring beans you could have a cheap cover crop overwinter to plough in to help with the OM. In your situation I’d be trying to help the job by not ploughing too deep. On top of all that with your adversion to using a contractor I’d question whether 100 acres or so could justify a half reasonable direct drill, after all if you buy a drill and keep the plough/ ph combi you’re just increasing your costs.

I like the concept of maybe using a peas/beans/oats cover crop as they have a pretty substantial soil improvement effect and would help reduce any compaction after grass and harvesting - plus there are varying uses for such a cover crop - plus a large amount of soil N on top of that.

Probably a cheaper tine drill would suit that size area, being a faster operation in all does help you fit weather windows easier so timing is thus easier to get right.

Once the water cycle is working for and not against you then the changeover feels like the logical way forward.

Quite agree to plough shallower, sounds counterproductive but in reality going deeper is, you just pan deeper and make it more difficult for roots and microbiology to fix.
If you must plough, of course, generally it is half-attempts at DD that result in failures, equivalent to "half-giving-up-smoking" in a way; a tine drill will eventually be all the soil disturbance you want

 

[e3120]

Thanks all, very interesting. As I see it, the grass exit is both the opportunity and the challenge. A maxi cultivation at this stage might mean I just get the painful early years behind me by the time I grass it down again. I think what's on the top at that stage is my best asset - I know that when I turn it back up again for a 2nd cereal currently, that's my best crop.

Attempts at ploughing shallower have been very mixed - very hard to keep it in the ground. How would a grassland subsoil sometime leading up to autumn sound? There's an Erth near here that does a a tidy low disturbance job.

A legume break is worthy of thought. I do use a few beans, but they're not suitable for more than a slice of protein requirement for palatability reasons. There's also the timeliness risk. Up here beans are often an October harvest, and whilst leaving a lovely soil, any type of later drilling here is compromised. Would people suggest them immediately after grass or after a cereal or 2?

If the answer to the thread title is no, due to scale or otherwise, that's OK, but wanted to explore the options.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Right about now (in the southern hemisphere autumn) is when is ideal for subsoiling, if it is needed.

Is there much of a pan?

They do tend to help quite a lot if the conditions are right, I would never set out blindly with one without digging first just to make sure it is going to be the right moisture and the right depth, but that is just me!

 

[DRC]

On your acreage I’d stick to what your doing.
I’m in a similar position , in I’d like to not plough everything, but the costs of buying yet another drill when it may not suit your system are prohibitive

 

[Clive]

I feel I'm entering the lion's den here, so please be gentle on a 100% plougher.

That's only true in so far as all cultivations are done with that tool, but there are 4-7 year leys in the mix, mostly grazed with fattening cattle. My cereals are the break and are 1 or 2 wheats followed by 0, 1 or 2 winter barleys. All straw baled and returned, along with another twice as much, as muck, 90% ahead of plough. Cereal acreage is about 100ac, will rise to 130-140 to reduce leys to less than 5 years, with an eye on possible tighter restrictions on PP in a new regime.

Land is heavy and grows great grass but is by no means borderline arable. Comfortable 10t average territory. Currently plough and furrow press (best time to work this land) and combi 24 hours drying later. Toughest seedbed is after grass when it turns up bone dry in an average year. Paddle rollers ahead of combi makes an acceptable seedbed.

I'd like to perserve the structure of the grass, as well as reducing establishment effort. The grass is pretty solid with hoof/muck traffic but not matted like a 20 year ley, especially dedicated silage ground. No sheep, so far from bowling-green short. Grass is the primary crop, so I can't afford to loose a chunk of the season. Currently the cattle and drill will often be in the field in the same week.

I'd imagine that I might want to plough ahead of WB to manage volunteers, but open to suggestion.

On the small area, only a single tool is likely to be viable. I had thought of converting my combi into something like the Bramleys and try to rip up the grass with it in 1 or 2 passes. A long way from DD I know, but I could imagine using the different elements to varying degrees depending on the circumstances. Would the vaddy coulters on it ever stand a chance of cutting in on their own? Or should I be thinking of a disc drill?

Oh, and I'm generally adverse to using contractors for timeliness and control freak reasons.

I think you will do well to better your current system without increasing costs. Your growing good yields in a sustainable way already from what you have posted

 

[YELROM]

We are on a similar system to you and use a 1997 moores drill.
We normally round up off ley then lime and straight in with moores drill
Below is a picture of wheat after 3yr ley taken the other day

 

[yellow belly]

If you are putting muck on then the nvz and environmentle rule require you to incorporate the muck if you do not plough you have to find a good way to do this as well as killing the grass
You soil sounds to be frer draining medium loam easier working than the clays in the midlands that need a lot of cultivations when ploughed

When we had livestock used muck we ploughed and had a lot of worms

If you bale straw you may be able to notill drill but you need to do it early

The restrictions on permanent pasture really only kick in if you do not use fertiliser and the pasture is traditional unimproved long term pasture decades

5 to 7 year leys always cleaned up weeds and gave very good crops of cereals for a few years after

 

[e3120]

If you are putting muck on then the nvz and environmentle rule require you to incorporate the muck if you do not plough you have to find a good way to do this as well as killing the grass
You soil sounds to be frer draining medium loam easier working than the clays in the midlands that need a lot of cultivations when ploughed

When we had livestock used muck we ploughed and had a lot of worms

If you bale straw you may be able to notill drill but you need to do it early

The restrictions on permanent pasture really only kick in if you do not use fertiliser and the pasture is traditional unimproved long term pasture decades

5 to 7 year leys always cleaned up weeds and gave very good crops of cereals for a few years after

Not in a NVZ, thankfully, the amount of stock we carry would be a big issue. There's nothing free-draining about this land - last spring was ideal for us. Without starting a 'mine is heavier than yours' debate, 4 x 18" furrows + press is enough for a 'mapped' TM155. It's the press (DD rings) that makes a job as it leaves enough fractures to widen the sweet spot between plasticine and concrete to maybe 12 hours.

I know the current PP rules are not overly restrictive, but just having one eye on a Govian future.

 

[Brisel]

Second hand 3m Claydon Hybrid? A bit of pan busting but a one pass machine other than rolling behind. You've got the power for it. The nearest user to you I think is @juke who might know of other strip tillers in your area.

Your current system has many good points and doesn't sound bad at all. A dig with a spade will tell you what you need to do or not do before you go spending money on machinery.

 

[juke]

@green giant might no of other strip tillers up in Northumberland, only direct drillers I know north of us are on 750s or Moore drills, but a claydon does sound perfect for this job

 

[Richard III]

My experience of DD into grassland is that it can often appear hard and compacted, but DD into it and it is lovely and friable and covered in worm casts by spring.

I would vote for a Simtec, if you did want to go ahead. The Simtec is very good a pulling into hard dry clay, a Moore would not be as good.

One thing to consider is that it is best to glyphosate the grass off one month before direct drilling, something you might be reluctant to do if you happen to be short of grass at the time. I would also worry about spending money now and then finding glyphosate banned in a few years time.

 

[foxbox]

We put 30 acres directly in to permanent pasture this year using a contractor with a 6m Weaving GD drill; it has gone in incredibly well and completely exceeded my expectations to this point. Establishment was £22/acre including applying slug pellets at the same time. Killing the PP was the biggest issue; it has a habit of recovering very well. Having said that we had similar issues with killing PP with the plough too. If you're on leys rather than PP you probably won't have the same issue.

 

[e3120]

Cheers all again. The current system works very well and deliveries good crops of grain and straw which I can use at home. It's just that it takes a lot of time & diesel for the acres involved. The price of new kit would buy a lot diesel but time is less plentiful. Easy solution is to get a contractor to plough it, but I'd be worried about only seeing them on a wet day.

Without focusing too much on machines, I think that any candidate needs to at least start with a disc to cope with the turf.

I could live with a transition plan that only managed the fields as they came out of grass and then for following seasons. This would work through in 2-3 years, hopefully at lower risk.

 

[SilliamWhale]

My experience of DD into grassland is that it can often appear hard and compacted, but DD into it and it is lovely and friable and covered in worm casts by spring.

I would vote for a Simtec, if you did want to go ahead. The Simtec is very good a pulling into hard dry clay, a Moore would not be as good.

One thing to consider is that it is best to glyphosate the grass off one month before direct drilling, something you might be reluctant to do if you happen to be short of grass at the time. I would also worry about spending money now and then finding glyphosate banned in a few years time.

In the Spring yes. In the Autumn I'd spray after drilling as the warmth is there reducing allelopathy in my experience

 

[e3120]

In the Spring yes. In the Autumn I'd spray after drilling as the warmth is there reducing allelopathy in my experience

I like this idea - would a decent plastering of muck concern you regarding hitting the grass? Is it normal to do combined grass destruction (complying with in-crop labels, obviously) and pre-em? I usually do a heavy chemical attack at the pre-em stage so that I can then shut the gate and concentrate on livestock until about now. My wheat will probably see its first N/T0 around the middle of April.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I like this idea - would a decent plastering of muck concern you regarding hitting the grass? Is it normal to do combined grass destruction (complying with in-crop labels, obviously) and pre-em? I usually do a heavy chemical attack at the pre-em stage so that I can then shut the gate and concentrate on livestock until about now. My wheat will probably see its first N/T0 around the middle of April.

Well it depends on what the label says but roundup after mixes with a liberator product has worked well for me and it is a very effective and efficient way of growing a crop