Is there any future in suckler cows ?

[beefandsleep]

Herd i buy bulls from calves his cows outside from february onwards on sand. So if a pedigree herd can do it way up here anywhere can

Anywhere on sand yes.

 

[Hilly]

Thats him aye.

Good stock nice people.

 

[Hilly]

Anywhere on sand yes.

They are on sand but it’s quite exposed , hardly cattle.

 

[M-J-G]

The Moray Coast isn't representative of the rest of the UK.

I wouldn't know, I've only visited there twice, it's 4 hours from me.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Personally I'd avoid having cows calving at busy times like harvest or sowing.

Starting to pen up, tag and ring calves or sort out a jumbled up set of twins after spending 12 hours on a drill or baler isn't really my idea of efficiency.

Maybe some people don't get problems, but I do and I always try to sort them out sooner rather than later.

As for wintering, we don't have good weather for housing cattle, it's generally too mild.
On sandy land cattle can outwinter fine in the UK.

I've outwintered weaned spring born calves on sandy land and housed some on straw, and the outdoor cattle are pretty much every time the best thriving group and rarely ever need any attention.
They don't have to adapt to being housed and they don't have to adapt at turnout, they are streets ahead once they get to grass and can be put into grass as soon as possible rather than any concerns about turning housed cattle out too soon in poor weather.

As I've said housing only benefits the land and some times the staff.

what breed of cows are you working with?

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

We have 270 ewes and 30 suckler cows and there is no way I would contemplate calving or lambing all at once. (I am the wrong side of 60) It would be to intense and I couldn't stand the sleep deprivation! In any case it has never made sense to me to put all that pressure on your system and have all your stock for sale at the same time in increasingly volatile markets. The cows are in 3 groups of 10 calving spring, summer and winter. That means I have calves to sell throughout the year, the bull is never overworked but is kept occupied so lasts longer, heifers are usually calved at 27 months which i think is ideal, there is no pressure on calving facilities, if we do have a scour outbreak it is confined to only 1/3 of the herd, I can graze cows that are bulled over the winter in fields where it is not suitable to graze the bull and calving is easy because you get a break (although most calve on their own anyway)

The sheep lamb Feb, March and April. Old ewes lambing in Feb are sold as culls by July, we have lambs to sell from July to April. There is again much less pressure on shed space, less disease and spreading of marketing risk.

I think the spread of marketing risk for both cattle and sheep is generally overlooked by "advisers" but is becoming more important. I'm very pleased I didn't have to sell all our calves last autumn and that I've still got some hoggs to sell.

 

[M-J-G]

what breed of cows are you working with?

Sim and Her x Dairy

Outwintering done with 3/4 to pure Sim

 

[Happy]

will you not have handling/mastitus issues weaning calves in july when theyre out at grass?

Find that very rare with mid Sept/October calvers weaned in July.
Squirt of swish on the cows at weaning generally keeps mastitis at bay.

Stot calves generally fat out the shed March-May. Heifers finished at grass or kept as replacements to go into spring calving herd.

Like you say, can spread the workload, calve outside as opposed to inside and only need half the number of bulls.
If you have some rougher hill ground it’s the ideal place to put the cows once weaned to keep the condition off them prior to calving. allowing spring calvers and youngstock to get the better stuff.

Every farm different and got to do what suits the farm. Still got a place here even though every expert has been advising the industry to going all spring calving for some years now.

 

[Jonny B88]

I'd be more interested in irish farmers experience and how its actually affected there business profitability.

I know through the irish farm journal they've adopted farmers and tried to improve beef farmers profits, and rotational grazing was on of the techniques they were using.

They've done something similar with suckler cows in Aberdeenshire and I've attended a few meetings. Can't recall any mention of how rotational grazing has transformed a business. Been a few other good ideas that have improved profitability but this isn't one of them.

Rather read something in black and white than hear many successful beef and sheep farmers doing it so it must work!

I have been fortunate enough to have been one of these farmers involved with the journal.

Rotational paddock grazing has been great and i would say a revelation which is starting to bear fruit. We have managed to increase our stocking rate substantially (admittedly from a low base) and there is still more to be increased. I would say that its not rotational grazing alone which is pushing profitability here, its a 3 legged stool between that, herd health and genetic gains. I.E there is no point pushing grazing if half your herd is unhealthy or your genetic base is too poor to make the most of quality grass.

Im in the northwest of NI so far from the kinder climates further south so similar to borders in Scotland i would have said. However we have increased growth to around 10T/ha without pushing a lot of fert at it, there is more potential to be grown. Paddock grazing really makes you realise how much grass can be grown and now that we do it i find it so much easier that set stocking, would not dream of doing that again. Last year we ran 24 heifers and 8 cows and calves on 5ha split into 10 paddocks around a yard to Ai. When cattle are used to moving in paddocks every two days as that was, bringing them in to Ai was a doddle and they quite enjoyed getting their run in and out i found. Stock are so quiet when you do that so often. Another benefit.

I think you were talking about the farm profit program in Scotland? I believe they are mentioning rotational grazing in more recent editions of the journal. I would say that there is a marked difference in scale between the two countries and that influences how intensive rotational grazing needs to be. There is guys here running up to 3CE/ha and making money at it, however for farms in Scotland that rate would mean a huge number of livestock. I guess for you guys the biggest advantage would be to have more ground available to cropping and therefore make more of your acerage. Also splitting costs attributed to cattle over fewer acres. There is a greater emphasis on profit/ha here as opposed to profit/head in Scotland would that be fair to say?

 

[Jonny B88]

Someone on this thread also mentioned kgs of beef/ha as a good benchmark, this is massively important in my opinion. Our own personal situation has been our output has always been low and therefore once costs were taken out you were left with little, often nothing. Since we have pushed stocking rate, our kgs of beef/ha has increased which in turn increases output and with little change in the variable and fixed costs, has meant increased profit.

 

[unlacedgecko]

I have been fortunate enough to have been one of these farmers involved with the journal.

Rotational paddock grazing has been great and i would say a revelation which is starting to bear fruit. We have managed to increase our stocking rate substantially (admittedly from a low base) and there is still more to be increased. I would say that its not rotational grazing alone which is pushing profitability here, its a 3 legged stool between that, herd health and genetic gains. I.E there is no point pushing grazing if half your herd is unhealthy or your genetic base is too poor to make the most of quality grass.

Im in the northwest of NI so far from the kinder climates further south so similar to borders in Scotland i would have said. However we have increased growth to around 10T/ha without pushing a lot of fert at it, there is more potential to be grown. Paddock grazing really makes you realise how much grass can be grown and now that we do it i find it so much easier that set stocking, would not dream of doing that again. Last year we ran 24 heifers and 8 cows and calves on 5ha split into 10 paddocks around a yard to Ai. When cattle are used to moving in paddocks every two days as that was, bringing them in to Ai was a doddle and they quite enjoyed getting their run in and out i found. Stock are so quiet when you do that so often. Another benefit.

I think you were talking about the farm profit program in Scotland? I believe they are mentioning rotational grazing in more recent editions of the journal. I would say that there is a marked difference in scale between the two countries and that influences how intensive rotational grazing needs to be. There is guys here running up to 3CE/ha and making money at it, however for farms in Scotland that rate would mean a huge number of livestock. I guess for you guys the biggest advantage would be to have more ground available to cropping and therefore make more of your acerage. Also splitting costs attributed to cattle over fewer acres. There is a greater emphasis on profit/ha here as opposed to profit/head in Scotland would that be fair to say?

CE/ha?

 

[M-J-G]

CE/ha?

Cow equivalents

 

[Jonny B88]

CE/ha?

Cow equivalents per hectare. Measure of stocking rate. 1 dairy cow equals 1 CE/ha. 1 suckler cow is 0.8 or 0.9 I think and youngstock less etc

 

[Hfd Cattle]

Just been reading this thread about Autumn and Spring calving . We run three cattle holdings, 2 sucker cow holdings and one for any stores/ calves bought in . We used to have a fourth holding for sucklers and an Angus bull but we sold the bull and put the cows on the other 2 suckler holdings . One bunch run with a Charolais bull and the other with a Beef Shorthorn . Both herds calve all year around and the bulls are with them all the time . We try to take calves off at 6 mths old or close to and if those cows are not back in calf then they go but it's very rare that they aren't . Any cows that we decide not to put back to the bull will rear their calf in a separate field then when weaned will be culled . Replacements are usually bought in Hfd market or very occasionally Ludlow or Raglan . While it's not planned it's amazing how most do calve between Jan / April . All calves have access to creep feed which is a 16%growing nut .
I always try to buy young cows with a calf at foot and pd back in calf but the main thing is to have a calf at foot .
We fatten very few now as we have found the store market is just as good . All bulls are left entire and we have been selling them at 9/11 mths in Hfd market and it has done us well ,we have so far averaged £960 . Heifers will be run on to 18 to 20 mths and also sold as stores.... we wait to see how that fares in April . They would normally have gone on the fat at 25 ish mths old .
We would also normally rear 30/40 calves on a 'heatwave milk' system but decided not too last year and bought in some 4/5 mth old weaned calves instead . We wait to see how this pans out I will also buy anything I think is worth buying to go onto the 'store cattle ' holding so there is a mixture of all ages and breeds but it does give us something to sell all yr around if we need to . .....I still think the sucker cows pay the best but I'm happy to be corrected .

 

[Farmer Fin]

Just been reading this thread about Autumn and Spring calving . We run three cattle holdings, 2 sucker cow holdings and one for any stores/ calves bought in . We used to have a fourth holding for sucklers and an Angus bull but we sold the bull and put the cows on the other 2 suckler holdings . One bunch run with a Charolais bull and the other with a Beef Shorthorn . Both herds calve all year around and the bulls are with them all the time . We try to take calves off at 6 mths old or close to and if those cows are not back in calf then they go but it's very rare that they aren't . Any cows that we decide not to put back to the bull will rear their calf in a separate field then when weaned will be culled . Replacements are usually bought in Hfd market or very occasionally Ludlow or Raglan . While it's not planned it's amazing how most do calve between Jan / April . All calves have access to creep feed which is a 16%growing nut .
I always try to buy young cows with a calf at foot and pd back in calf but the main thing is to have a calf at foot .
We fatten very few now as we have found the store market is just as good . All bulls are left entire and we have been selling them at 9/11 mths in Hfd market and it has done us well ,we have so far averaged £960 . Heifers will be run on to 18 to 20 mths and also sold as stores.... we wait to see how that fares in April . They would normally have gone on the fat at 25 ish mths old .
We would also normally rear 30/40 calves on a 'heatwave milk' system but decided not too last year and bought in some 4/5 mth old weaned calves instead . We wait to see how this pans out I will also buy anything I think is worth buying to go onto the 'store cattle ' holding so there is a mixture of all ages and breeds but it does give us something to sell all yr around if we need to . .....I still think the sucker cows pay the best but I'm happy to be corrected .

Thanks for detailed explanation of you system. Is the main reason you calve all year round because you want to sell cattle all year. That system is “normally” inefficient as it tend to have more passengers and harder to feed the cows making it more expensive. Do you have any costings for the cows?

 

[Emma02s]

 

[Hilly]

Just been reading this thread about Autumn and Spring calving . We run three cattle holdings, 2 sucker cow holdings and one for any stores/ calves bought in . We used to have a fourth holding for sucklers and an Angus bull but we sold the bull and put the cows on the other 2 suckler holdings . One bunch run with a Charolais bull and the other with a Beef Shorthorn . Both herds calve all year around and the bulls are with them all the time . We try to take calves off at 6 mths old or close to and if those cows are not back in calf then they go but it's very rare that they aren't . Any cows that we decide not to put back to the bull will rear their calf in a separate field then when weaned will be culled . Replacements are usually bought in Hfd market or very occasionally Ludlow or Raglan . While it's not planned it's amazing how most do calve between Jan / April . All calves have access to creep feed which is a 16%growing nut .
I always try to buy young cows with a calf at foot and pd back in calf but the main thing is to have a calf at foot .
We fatten very few now as we have found the store market is just as good . All bulls are left entire and we have been selling them at 9/11 mths in Hfd market and it has done us well ,we have so far averaged £960 . Heifers will be run on to 18 to 20 mths and also sold as stores.... we wait to see how that fares in April . They would normally have gone on the fat at 25 ish mths old .
We would also normally rear 30/40 calves on a 'heatwave milk' system but decided not too last year and bought in some 4/5 mth old weaned calves instead . We wait to see how this pans out I will also buy anything I think is worth buying to go onto the 'store cattle ' holding so there is a mixture of all ages and breeds but it does give us something to sell all yr around if we need to . .....I still think the sucker cows pay the best but I'm happy to be corrected .

I’m the polar opposite , strickt bulling periods but still end up calving six months of the year lol

 

[M-J-G]

We have 270 ewes and 30 suckler cows and there is no way I would contemplate calving or lambing all at once. (I am the wrong side of 60) It would be to intense and I couldn't stand the sleep deprivation! In any case it has never made sense to me to put all that pressure on your system and have all your stock for sale at the same time in increasingly volatile markets. The cows are in 3 groups of 10 calving spring, summer and winter. That means I have calves to sell throughout the year, the bull is never overworked but is kept occupied so lasts longer, heifers are usually calved at 27 months which i think is ideal, there is no pressure on calving facilities, if we do have a scour outbreak it is confined to only 1/3 of the herd, I can graze cows that are bulled over the winter in fields where it is not suitable to graze the bull and calving is easy because you get a break (although most calve on their own anyway)

The sheep lamb Feb, March and April. Old ewes lambing in Feb are sold as culls by July, we have lambs to sell from July to April. There is again much less pressure on shed space, less disease and spreading of marketing risk.

I think the spread of marketing risk for both cattle and sheep is generally overlooked by "advisers" but is becoming more important. I'm very pleased I didn't have to sell all our calves last autumn and that I've still got some hoggs to sell.

I'd guess you'll end up more sleep deprived calving cows during 3 periods and lambing sheep for 3 months.

The spread of risk from scours and bugs is likely to be balanced out by having mixed aged stock on the farm and facilities where stock are calving and lambing for longer periods which can allow risks to build.

I'd guess your low numbers are partly what is saving you a lot of issues.
We are in a similar situation with sheep where we don't have a big flock, but we do lamb them all at once indoors, and I know for a fact that we get away with murder compared to a flock of a thousand.

 

[M-J-G]

A lot of talk about prolonged calving to spread selling period.
Spreading your sales of cattle out shouldn't be a problem.
I know a farmer who sells 4 or 5 perfectly in spec cattle every week to butchers, and he just has one tight calving period.
Selecting the stock and managing appropriately allows this without much issue.
I've generally just calved for 9 weeks and haven't had issue with always having cattle for slaughter all year round for butchering.

Selling sheep over a longer period isn't really a problem, some breeds will grow faster than others which will give a pretty long selling period, particularly when you take into account that you'll have everything from growthy singles right down to slower maturing twins, and that's just using genetics, management can spread sales yet further.
Good thriving lowland singles can be ready in 9 weeks and plenty on here are selling lambs now and will be for a while yet, so AYR sales aren't a problem if that's what is desired.

No need for prolonged calving and lambing periods, and even if there was I'd have no interest in it.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Just been reading this thread about Autumn and Spring calving . We run three cattle holdings, 2 sucker cow holdings and one for any stores/ calves bought in . We used to have a fourth holding for sucklers and an Angus bull but we sold the bull and put the cows on the other 2 suckler holdings . One bunch run with a Charolais bull and the other with a Beef Shorthorn . Both herds calve all year around and the bulls are with them all the time . We try to take calves off at 6 mths old or close to and if those cows are not back in calf then they go but it's very rare that they aren't . Any cows that we decide not to put back to the bull will rear their calf in a separate field then when weaned will be culled . Replacements are usually bought in Hfd market or very occasionally Ludlow or Raglan . While it's not planned it's amazing how most do calve between Jan / April . All calves have access to creep feed which is a 16%growing nut .
I always try to buy young cows with a calf at foot and pd back in calf but the main thing is to have a calf at foot .
We fatten very few now as we have found the store market is just as good . All bulls are left entire and we have been selling them at 9/11 mths in Hfd market and it has done us well ,we have so far averaged £960 . Heifers will be run on to 18 to 20 mths and also sold as stores.... we wait to see how that fares in April . They would normally have gone on the fat at 25 ish mths old .
We would also normally rear 30/40 calves on a 'heatwave milk' system but decided not too last year and bought in some 4/5 mth old weaned calves instead . We wait to see how this pans out I will also buy anything I think is worth buying to go onto the 'store cattle ' holding so there is a mixture of all ages and breeds but it does give us something to sell all yr around if we need to . .....I still think the sucker cows pay the best but I'm happy to be corrected .

why have you switched to weaned calves out of interest and roughly how much do they cost?