Ivermectin , covid cure

[tepapa]

On the contrary- where people have adopted such staunch beliefs (the vaccine doesn't work, ivermectin is the cure or whatever falsehood de jour they present with today) and then subsequently proven incorrect at every juncture, they are trapped and have no mechanism for a climbdown. No one on this entire forum can explain to me the rationale of becoming so heavily personally invested in a fudging random drug which has been about for 50 years. If I'd started 3 years ago telling folk emphatically that paracetamol is the cure for covid, you'd have assumed I was nuts. Even though it too has been around since Christ rode a camel there was no contemporary evidence that it worked on viruses and no known logical mechanism that it could have worked. If I had said dexamethasone was the cure (it too being around since Christ rode a donkey) there would have been some logic to that belief- it's a drug that has been used in respiratory medicine for decades and costs the NHS pocket change a packet.

How then do you explain the level of zeal so many contributors on this thread have for ivermectin? You can't, even their worshipful devotion to one crack pot doesn't explain it. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. They just can't stand losing face to say so. My hopes for various drugs being found useful were dashed on multiple occasions because I looked for those with a plausible or at least understood mechanism of action in relation to viral diseases. Some very expensive and pretty seriously sharp edge drugs were trialled and found to be next to useless.

At every juncture I have sought data supporting the idea that ivermectin works. None has ever withstood proper scrutiny. And now they are scrabbling around looking for their next 'cure'. Surprise surprise it's Vitamin D. Like none of us ever saw that coming- but that's all part of the conspiracy along with the complete bullship that we were told a vaccine 'stays in the arm', despite 10+ years of work in vivo showing that this demonstrably was never the case.

But settle yourself in: next week it'll be zinc or selenium. Vitamin C the week after that. Maybe eventually some study will turn up some data that shows amitriptyline is useful and they'll seize on that as being part of the falsehood that everyone was acting to conceal the truth all along when the reality is no fudger even thought to try it in the grip of a global pandemic.

The one treatment that's proven to work in almost all cases is the human immune system. Well before the vaccine was available, people all around the world were infected in the millions and a figure well over 99% recovered, many not even knowing they were infected.

We don't need a magic cure in ivermectin or vit D or anything else just look after your health and your body will very likely keep you alive. Admittedly those in very poor health, not helped by age, will be at a greater risk but those will also be at risk of a multitude of illnesses, not least existing risks such as the flu.

 

[ollie989898]

Or is it that our industry operates in a world dominated by big players who are continually trying to pull our pants down, be that multinationals, pressure groups or HM govt and political operatives of all persuasions, so as a result there is a tendency to question things and do so with a healthy degree of skepticism.

I know a dozen people who suffered adverse reactions to the vaccines, from being bed ridden for a few days to full on hospitalisations from TIAs, my father still has ongoing complications.

I find the dismissive and often mocking nature of yourself and Ollies posts on this thread quite cold hearted in that respect.

You can perhaps being to understand my tone when I read bone comments which boldly proclaim covid is 'just a cold' when I myself and many amongst us have seen people in very poor shape or worse because of covid19.

I have never made any attempt to deny that people have experienced adverse events from vaccines- of any kind. Such people should be compensated fully within the usual process which was devised many years ago to help people so affected.

 

[ollie989898]

The one treatment that's proven to work in almost all cases is the human immune system. Well before the vaccine was available, people all around the world were infected in the millions and a figure well over 99% recovered, many not even knowing they were infected.

We don't need a magic cure in ivermectin or vit D or anything else just look after your health and your body will very likely keep you alive. Admittedly those in very poor health, not helped by age, will be at a greater risk but those will also be at risk of a multitude of illnesses, not least existing risks such as the flu.

Unfortunately one cannot count on one's immune system with absolute certainty. As I sit here now I cannot tell you what my own T cell count is. Nor can I tell you the same for my children. A great number of ailments have -initially at least- very few or largely unnoticeable symptoms that mean one could have them and go for weeks or months without noticing. I assume I am healthy but I cannot in all honesty know it to be 100% true.

I have seen a great many people who outwardly would appear healthy but they are presenting as being acutely unwell. Coronavirus hospitalised great numbers of people who weren't even particularly old. I have seen children suffer horribly with long term complications from covid infection. You can perhaps appreciate why I have short shift for people who profess that covid was some routine malady that we didn't need to worry about. If the entire UK caught the same cold virus at once and it hospitalised 30 people in every 100,000 and 4% of those people subsequently died from it we would be concerned and rightly so.

I can still distinctly remember being informed by my immediate boss that we had for-real PCR-confirmed covid cases in my department. My first thought; panic even, knowing I had now quite obviously been exposed my first instinct wasn't cripes I shouldn't go to work tomorrow, but more do I dare to go home? That evening by some miracle a lot of PPE arrived and folk rammed into the nearest premier inn. At that juncture I just wanted to be amongst my work colleagues more than anything in the world.

 

[melted welly]

You can perhaps being to understand my tone when I read bone comments which boldly proclaim covid is 'just a cold' when I myself and many amongst us have seen people in very poor shape or worse because of covid19.

Can understand your frustration, but I think a medical professional should retain their professional manner at all times otherwise you just undermine your position.

 

[primmiemoo]

If you use words you may be able to tell me.
Again, i work stuff out for myself, it's a lot more reliable than anything you point me at or away from

So how is it you are at such a tangent to the vast majority of scientists who study all aspects of covid-19?

They have overwhelming evidence that covid is not a cold. Not even when a person has symptoms that mimic a common cold. It's a new disease. Its full extent is emerged enough with prevalence of Post Acute Sequelae of Covid in the population to be the cause of great concern for stability of supply and maintenance chains in economies. This doesn't happen with colds or flu.

If you have worked things out for yourself, then what is stopping you from looking at the what the majority are saying? Just to check your workings. Measure twice or more.

 

[primmiemoo]

Yep, there were a number of advantages commercially...cheaper to produce and adapt.
A number of disadvantages to improving people's health, mostly around the unknown population effect of genetic modification.
Also dose rate.
Also public resistance to GM.
Needed a properly exaggerated, incentivised overreaction to a new cold virus in order to get them approved.
Now the fear of potential health drawbacks have proved well founded, there are unlikely to be any more.
What's more, all vaccination rates now dropping on the back of this and some of them did work(maybe)
More net covid harm done!

What, precisely, is GM in this?

 

[primmiemoo]

Or is it that our industry operates in a world dominated by big players who are continually trying to pull our pants down, be that multinationals, pressure groups or HM govt and political operatives of all persuasions, so as a result there is a tendency to question things and do so with a healthy degree of skepticism.

I know a dozen people who suffered adverse reactions to the vaccines, from being bed ridden for a few days to full on hospitalisations from TIAs, my father still has ongoing complications.

I find the dismissive and often mocking nature of yourself and Ollies posts on this thread quite cold hearted in that respect.

Cold hearted? There's heaps of sympathy for people who had a strong response to any vaccines. That's the nature of their own immune systems, and I, too, know people who took to their beds with a few days of fever ~ in one case, just as [full quote deleted] usual because that's what happens when they have any vaccines. In others, they haven't had vaccines since school (never travelled) so weren't attuned to their bodies. They had a bit of a surprise, although they were informed of the possibility before having the jabs. Heaps of sympathy for people whose jabs coincided with TIAs. I hope your father is doing well.

When I mock, it's because of the intransigence of posters who deny the equivalent of a round world where SARS-CoV-2 is concerned. They didn't set out to take on such silliness, but despite being shown scientific evidence, staunchly continue to be wrong.

 

[primmiemoo]

The one treatment that's proven to work in almost all cases is the human immune system. Well before the vaccine was available, people all around the world were infected in the millions and a figure well over 99% recovered, many not even knowing they were infected.

We don't need a magic cure in ivermectin or vit D or anything else just look after your health and your body will very likely keep you alive. Admittedly those in very poor health, not helped by age, will be at a greater risk but those will also be at risk of a multitude of illnesses, not least existing risks such as the flu.

That's survivor bias. Just ask the people who died.

Have you read this, btw? There is far more to covid than the superficial recovery rate ~

Thread by @jeffgilchrist on Thread Reader App

@jeffgilchrist: Why should we care about a virus with a "99.8% survival rate"? This thread highlights the actual impact a virus with a high survival rate can have on the population and why it is all...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[tepapa]

It's a new disease. Its full extent is emerged enough with prevalence of Post Acute Sequelae of Covid in the population to be the cause of great concern for stability of supply and maintenance chains in economies. This doesn't happen with colds or flu.

You think long COVID has the potential to crash the economy?

I'd put money that the £37 billion spent of track and trace will have a greater long term affect on the economy.

 

[bobk]

You think long COVID has the potential to crash the economy?

I'd put money that the £37 billion spent of track and trace will have a greater long term affect on the economy.

Furlough did .

 

[bobk]

Furlough did .

People are dying of flu and winter related disease as we waffle

 

[tepapa]

That's survivor bias. Just ask the people who died.

Have you read this, btw? There is far more to covid than the superficial recovery rate ~

Thread by @jeffgilchrist on Thread Reader App

@jeffgilchrist: Why should we care about a virus with a "99.8% survival rate"? This thread highlights the actual impact a virus with a high survival rate can have on the population and why it is all...…

threadreaderapp.com

99.9%+ of people survived. And out of the poor people that didn't, the vast majority were the elderly and ill. Very few would have no previous issues and these were the poor people that succumbed to COVID. It's a testament to the ability of the NHS to keep people alive longer than their natural ability.

Somethings going to get us all in the end, In fact the older we get and the more unhealthy our lifestyles the sooner we'll meet out maker. Just remember not one person died from flu, according to the statistics you've presented, in two years. Not one! We managed to cure the flu virus whilst 250k people died with COVID.

 

[ollie989898]

What, precisely, is GM in this?

Forget it. This is the same kind of logic that equates mRNA vaccines with 'gene therapy'. This technology is nothing like gene therapy or genetic modification both of which are many times more complex. Researcher in their wildest dreams couldn't ever hope to manage actual gene therapy or genetic modification using mRNA vaccines. It is nothing like that simple unfortunately. If you could just inject someone with some mRNA and magically cure their cystic fibrosis or some other similar chronic genetic condition the inventor of such technology would be a gazillionaire overnight.

 

[essex man]

What, precisely, is GM in this?

The vaccine instructs your body to produce the spike protein which triggers an immune response.
I presume you know this.
As opposed to traditional vaccines where you were simply injected with the dead or attentuated virus

 

[Charlie Gill]

He hasn’t chucked it and he gives his books away free. He started and continues his channel because there was precious little information from official sources early on. He did it and still does it as a service and he has no need for the money that his non-sponsored channel creates from the pure popularity of his output.

He is most certainly not ‘anti-vax’ and I have yet to hear any anti-vaccine propaganda on his channel. He does legitimately question the wisdom of vaccinating healthy individuals and certainly children that are not in any risk group, and considering the mild nature of recent variants of Covid, with a novel series of vaccines with a relatively high risk factor and one that has been discontinued that was proven to cause an unnacceptably high incidence of heart and blood clotting. That, after the vaccines were officially publicised as being thoroughly tested and ‘safe’. In fact most of the Covid vaccines were launched with hardly any safety testing under an emergency license scheme.

Dr Campbell and almost all those guest contributors are NOT anti-vaccine any more than I am. You and Ollie seem only to see things in either black or white with no room whatsoever for the almost infinite shades of grey in between or either side. Solidly blinkered to accept the status quo even though that itself is continually shifting with increased knowledge and observation.

What about when he put out that video suggesting 150000 excess deaths due to the vaccine? What about the miscarriage one?

He's milking it and you know it.

 

[essex man]

What about when he put out that video suggesting 150000 excess deaths due to the vaccine? What about the miscarriage one?

He's milking it and you know it.

150000 in this country?

 

[Two Tone]

I'm a farmer. There are very few farmers who lack intelligence. I'm talking about research science. The work that goes on to investigate the world, not the commercial sector. It's possible to go to a farming event in a muddy field and meet world acclaimed scientists with expertise in so many aspects that agriculture needs. I went to one held relatively locally, and came home with much better insight into soil health, carbon sequestration, and sheep health. It's saved the business many thousands of quid since by reducing commercial inputs.

I've no idea what you mean by waking up. My world is real. A sheep's head to the knee bloody hurts. An ice pack and a painkiller helps to start the healing process.

Yes, a sheep's head between the knees does hurt. As does a Deer’s antlers in the guts!
I seem to remember you mentioning a Bachelor’s degree with honours and a change of circimstances that brought you to farming.

You also mentioned about farmers taking advantage of science, which of course we do.
However, the problem is that those wanting us to use that science care more about the selling it to us than the science itself.

On the arable side of this farm, that has been proven time and time again by certain agronomists (now fired!) who would tell us that we had to use such and such spray or disaster would happen. Only for that spray to get lose its licence and get banned and no such problem occurs or very rarely occurs. So it is Science -v- Sales and it is Sales that always wins.
Exactly the same has now happened in the Veterinary drugs Science-v-Sales.

I have become convinced for some time that our GP’s expect that when we go and see them, we expect them to send us home with some prescription medication. Wheras I always hoped there was no need!
My step daughter, now a qualified Doctor has seen this first hand on placement, because the GP automatically assumed their patient wouldn’t understand why he/she wasn’t being sent home with an antibiotic for the common cold.
Whereas that Doctor should have explained the dangers of over or misuse of antibiotic becoming ineffective as the bacteria become resistant to them.


Let’s move on to Doctors and Nurses YouTube channels, such as Dr. John Campbell’s.
They all have to be very careful not to say anything that might end up with them being sued.
So the last thing they would do is lie. As new research becomes available, they might update their opinions and change what they had said.
The BBC’s Verify, tried to discredit him, but failed insofar that some data Dr John used was as he said, from a specific area rather than the whole Country.


Then we have a situation such as TFF’s @ollie989898 , a former agronomist, who probably regards himself as its medical spokesperson. He wrote two very good posts on the Blood Pressure thread about Primary and Secondary Hypertension.
Many of us have asked him repeatedly to tell us how he is qualified to talk, explain and advise on health issues.
He refuses to tell us.
Why?
He clearly is passionate about the NHS and doesn’t take kindly to criticism of it.

However, he most certainly hasn’t got a Medical Degree and wouldn’t dare talk and share the information he has if he had, for fear of being sued. Even from those two brilliant Hypertension articles!!
So is he a Nurse Practitioner or a Paramedic, both of which would lead him to the the knowledge he undoubtedly has, without as much fear of being sued?

Well done him, for whatever he does, but we wish he didn’t come over quite as arrogantly and rudely towards us that haven’t got that training. Or try to blind us with science and medical technical terms, just like some agronomist have tried to do.
But this could actually be because as that former agronomist, he had to come over towards his farmer customers as knowledgable enough to persuade them to buy products that perhaps they didn’t really need…………!

Hey ho!


PS:
I may well have been one of those unfortunate people, who as you ‘read somewhere(!)’, suffered a heart attack due to a Covid Jab. I’ll never know.………

 

[Charlie Gill]

150000 in this country?

yeah.

 

[essex man]

yeah.

In total over 3 years?

 

[Charlie Gill]

In total over 3 years?

1 year. He made it on to More or Less for that gem.