John Price interview , FarmersWeekly River Lugg video.

[kiwi pom]

The main thing wrong was any sign of objectivity from the Judge.
He interpreted everything as negatively as he could, often embellishing the prosecution while dismissing evidence from the defence.

One of the best examples;

11. There is a wealth of photographs which show the river before and after the work done by Mr Price. Any person, with even a passing interest in the countryside and conservation, could not fail to be dismayed by the devastation caused by Mr Price. He has turned a traditional, tree lined, meandering river, full of wildlife, into a canal void of most life. It is nothing short of ecological vandalism on an industrial scale.


That is appallingly flawed statement for any Judge to make.

From the couple of photos, I saw it looks like he just dropped all the trees and cleared everything, not my idea of a particularly good job especially when the area is protected, and I don't find the above comment too outrageous. Obviously, I'm just a casual observer, ridiculous to suggest there was no damage done though.
I'll stand by my comment that it's a bit more complicated than some people would suggest.
I do understand the frustration with the authorities, but it seems like he did have a go at some of the people involved who were just doing their jobs.
You'd be happy if you owned the fishing rights?

 

[lloyd]

You'd be happy if you owned the fishing rights?

Careful not to assume.

 

[texelburger]

This country has gone to the dogs because nobody can make a decision on behalf of an organisation, by the time a decision has been made a fortune has been spent getting to the answer with the budget blown. People like JP are doers, they get the job done. Many organisations, EA, NE, Wildlife trusts, National trust etc etc have no money because its wasted talking about making a decision rather than doing the actual work. On another note we are constantly told the river wye is dead ,and yet a recent fishing contest landed over 2t of fish and was lauded as the best river in the country !

Yes,record numbers of fish being caught on the Wye in our area.Loads of wildlife along the banks too.

 

[Grass And Grain]

Any removed trees looked to have been on the river bank, but if what Mr Price says is correct, those trees were actually in the middle of the river, it's just that the river course had moved over time (from date the bridge was built).

When you've built bridges, you can't just leave a river to keep shifting it's course, or the bridges end up being in the wrong place. You either move the bridge (not very practical), or regularly maintain the river to keep its course in the correct place to suit the bridge you've built. This means pulling the inside of the corners back every couple of years.

Ok it's best to do any work in early spring so there's time for vegetation to regrow, but you can pull corners back in late summer, it doesn't make any difference to erosion really, because silt gets deposited on corner insides. Erosion occurs on the far bank on outside of the corner.

With a lowland river, I don't buy the argument that straightening the rivers out as best as we can, leads to more erosion. In my experience, the worse a meander gets, the worse the erosion becomes because the water has to turn a sharper corner. Best to just keep pulling the corners back.

 

[Lakesdigger]

Any removed trees looked to have been on the river bank, but if what Mr Price says is correct, those trees were actually in the middle of the river, it's just that the river course had moved over time (from date the bridge was built).

When you've built bridges, you can't just leave a river to keep shifting it's course, or the bridges end up being in the wrong place. You either move the bridge (not very practical), or regularly maintain the river to keep its course in the correct place to suit the bridge you've built. This means pulling the inside of the corners back every couple of years.

Ok it's best to do any work in early spring so there's time for vegetation to regrow, but you can pull corners back in late summer, it doesn't make any difference to erosion really, because silt gets deposited on corner insides. Erosion occurs on the far bank on outside of the corner.

With a lowland river, I don't buy the argument that straightening the rivers out as best as we can, leads to more erosion. In my experience, the worse a meander gets, the worse the erosion becomes because the water has to turn a sharper corner. Best to just keep pulling the corners back.

So he based his river maintenance on how it looked 300 years ago? To be fair he says on the video the "flood arch" has never been clear as far back as he knows but i doubt think that helps his case as you can't try and downplay the changes you've made if you admit to changing something to that extent.
As others have said already I think there's more to it which we'll probably never know on both sides of the argument.

 

[renewablejohn]

From the couple of photos, I saw it looks like he just dropped all the trees and cleared everything, not my idea of a particularly good job especially when the area is protected, and I don't find the above comment too outrageous. Obviously, I'm just a casual observer, ridiculous to suggest there was no damage done though.
I'll stand by my comment that it's a bit more complicated than some people would suggest.
I do understand the frustration with the authorities, but it seems like he did have a go at some of the people involved who were just doing their jobs.
You'd be happy if you owned the fishing rights?

Just look at the video at 1.40 to see the state of the flooding. The trees in the middle of the river and the lack of trees on the embankments on the upstream section compared to the tree lined embankment picture used in court from the downstream section. I can see it eventually being turned into a movie highlighting the corrupt nature of our judicial system.

 

[renewablejohn]

So he based his river maintenance on how it looked 300 years ago? To be fair he says on the video the "flood arch" has never been clear as far back as he knows but i doubt think that helps his case as you can't try and downplay the changes you've made if you admit to changing something to that extent.
As others have said already I think there's more to it which we'll probably never know on both sides of the argument.

No you base your river maintenance on how the man made river was designed in the first place unless you ignore the fact it was actually a canal with the turnaround point at the bridge.

 

[Lakesdigger]

Just look at the video at 1.40 to see the state of the flooding. The trees in the middle of the river and the lack of trees on the embankments on the upstream section compared to the tree lined embankment picture used in court from the downstream section. I can see it eventually being turned into a movie highlighting the corrupt nature of our judicial system.

That's one of the things that pi**es me the most about how this whole carry on has panned out, I've never yet seen any proper before and after pics which are of the same sections so you can truly make comparisons. Although EA and NE etc are very good at making comparisons difficult (like how they twist rainfall figures after floods).

 

[Old apprentice]

One person I was talking to said it had made the water flow different down stream I said the water when flooding would not be going threw the cottages houses that were fed up with being flooded and the water would still be going down stream after it had been threw the properties . This person is an official at a so called farmer organization. No need to gess what organization.

 

[renewablejohn]

That's one of the things that pi**es me the most about how this whole carry on has panned out, I've never yet seen any proper before and after pics which are of the same sections so you can truly make comparisons. Although EA and NE etc are very good at making comparisons difficult (like how they twist rainfall figures after floods).

The true pics of before are available and where posted on the large TFF thread after the trial. What pics where used at the trial is a different matter and as for the press pictures they where blatantly dishonest as anyone with a keen eye could easily see as the bridge parapets are slightly different upstream to downstream.

 

[renewablejohn]

I'd forgotten about the first thread when I saw the interview and thought he was just talking about clearing the bridge which looks good, but completely removing everything on long stretches on a number of occasions after being told to stop doesn't seem like the smartest thing to do.
I'm sure something needed doing but that?
I also notice he was ok with blocking it up and pumping the water out for irrigation when it suited him.
If you owned the fishing rights (not cheap I'd imagine) what would you say.

Think you will find he did not block up the river for pumping irrigation but used the water from the old mill leat for that purpose. But why spoil a good story for lack of a few facts.

 

[kiwi pom]

Think you will find he did not block up the river for pumping irrigation but used the water from the old mill leat for that purpose. But why spoil a good story for lack of a few facts.

I'm just reading from the sentencing remarks, I don't consider them to be a "good story" You seem to ignore the damage he caused and his aggressive nature which certainly seems to have been a large factor in how things were handled, you might of course be Mr Price.
It seems fairly clear to me that he believed he could do what he wanted, caused issues and broke rules for years. He did however plead guilty to 2 sets of charges so at least he knew what he'd done.
TFF ers seem to have Mr Price pegged as some kind of a hero, I don't see it.

 

[kiwi pom]

Careful not to assume.

Don't know enough about fishing to know one way or another, has it been improved do you think?

 

[FonterraFarmer]

I'm just reading from the sentencing remarks, I don't consider them to be a "good story" You seem to ignore the damage he caused and his aggressive nature which certainly seems to have been a large factor in how things were handled, you might of course be Mr Price.
It seems fairly clear to me that he believed he could do what he wanted, caused issues and broke rules for years. He did however plead guilty to 2 sets of charges so at least he knew what he'd done.
TFF ers seem to have Mr Price pegged as some kind of a hero, I don't see it.

I think sometimes you need to break eggs to make an omelette....

 

[bluebell]

The problem now in this country, if you wait for those in power, to get the permissions, its to late? sometimes you just have to get on with it? Anyone on here who farms, has land that borders a river knows this? My case in point, i have a stretch of grazing that borders the river crouch, its chocked to the t...s with rubbish, dead trees, etc, 2 years back we cleared a piece of this stretch, only time in my book, to safely do this is late summer, when the water level is low enough to be able to get in the river? common sense? If you leave it to now, its flooding, it flooded burst its banks the other week, the trouble with this river is simple, my bit i can clear, its down stream?

 

[Two Tone]

As John correctly states, the corse of the river has changed, clearly demonstrated by the fact that the Bridge is now at an angle to the direction of flow of the River. There is no way that they would have originally built a three span bridge with one unnecessary span.

However this is all totally irrelevant if the EA, the media and the Courts totally ignore what was the right thing to have done, overriding any former permissions, whether in writing or verbally.

It causes a massive mistrust in any such organisation in future, correctly re-highlighted by Andrew Ward’s videos as to the recent flooding caused by Storm Babet, in Lincolnshire.

I’ll bet that despite their failure to support John Price in Court, that all the Parish Council and residents of Kingsland are damned pleased with what John has done that stopped their homes from flooding this Autumn.

FU, EA!

 

[renewablejohn]

I'm just reading from the sentencing remarks, I don't consider them to be a "good story" You seem to ignore the damage he caused and his aggressive nature which certainly seems to have been a large factor in how things were handled, you might of course be Mr Price.
It seems fairly clear to me that he believed he could do what he wanted, caused issues and broke rules for years. He did however plead guilty to 2 sets of charges so at least he knew what he'd done.
TFF ers seem to have Mr Price pegged as some kind of a hero, I don't see it.

Go away and research Riparian rights which has ruled land owners obligations and responsibilities in respect of rivers and water courses for centuries. As for pleading guilty he had no option as despite having the approval from both EA and FC to carry out the works it is totally irrelevant in this government quango world as being in a SSSI he also had to submit the EA and FC approvals to NE so that they could approve the work already agreed with EA and FC could be carried out. Thats the magic bit of paper he had to plead guilty to not having. Most farmers would be totally unaware of this extra layer of officialdom forced onto them as they would not have had any control of the land going into a SSSI in the first place. As for damage done its not ignored he has actually improved the environment which the EA should have been doing by stopping the area from flooding and restoring the river to its original design parameters.

 

[Exfarmer]

I'm just reading from the sentencing remarks, I don't consider them to be a "good story" You seem to ignore the damage he caused and his aggressive nature which certainly seems to have been a large factor in how things were handled, you might of course be Mr Price.
It seems fairly clear to me that he believed he could do what he wanted, caused issues and broke rules for years. He did however plead guilty to 2 sets of charges so at least he knew what he'd done.
TFF ers seem to have Mr Price pegged as some kind of a hero, I don't see it.

I used to live on a major UK river. Our farm owned three Islands and rented a fourth . We swam regularly as chioldren on stretch which was a long sweeping bend about 30 yards wide at that point.
This is where I learned about rivers, how they are made and how they change over the years.
Our swimming area which was actually on our neighbours farm was a a very shallow stretch with a fine sandy base it was at most a couple of feet deep, fine for use kids , except it was also very dangerous, to go to close to the other bank was inviting drowning un less you were. a good swimmer as the river bed suddenly dropped off and was near 10 feet deep for the last 10 yards.
but i am off topic.
Our islands we owned 2 had bridges erected in Victorian times for access and no one in there right mind would take a tractor across, however it did not matter at all since the river had moved and now unless the river was in spate you just drove or walked across. The last Island was different, certainly we never stepped foot on it or any predecessor for a considerable time since this 30 yard river had cut it clean off having moved nearly 100 yards from its position on the 1880 map.
Any close study of the pictures of the Lugg show similar story and it is obvious that it was moving course substantially since the bridge had been built. In a few years with no action it would cut the road higher up leaving the old bridge high and dry.
The truth was everyone knew action was needed and there is no question the local EA man agreed, as did the vast majority of the locals.
Mr. Prices fault was nothing to do with the works, it was the sim ple fact he did not go through the proper channel.
He did not get a river engineer to design a proposal, he did not have the innumerable, fish, birds, bats, insect, frog, newt etc surveys done which after spending p[ossibly £100K would decide the omnly appropriate days would be Christmas day and Easter Sunday. He did not seek planning and the inevitable public consultation probably resulting in an long winded public enquiry costing possibly half a million pounds. His sin was all these, which done properly would have cost the taxpayer up to a couple of million pounds to do the job which he did oput of his own pocket. The result would have been very much the same or possibly worse, done by unskilled operators who have taken over from those who worked on these rivers all their lives.
what those of us who have lived and worked alongside these rivers as farmers will remember very well until 30 years ago this dredging was a regular occurrence every few years With little or no long term affects on the resident creatures. Most likely the actions of the sewage companies and the introduction of so many foreign species by the pet trade and anglers have done far greater damage to that stretch of the river than any dredging will ever do

 

[Levelsman]

Don't know enough about fishing to know one way or another, has it been improved do you think?

According to YourHerefordshire.co.uk , a recent 3 day fishing competition had record catches on the Wye.
Sure to all be EA rod License holders.

Any comment Mr EA?

 

[FonterraFarmer]

The problem now in this country, if you wait for those in power, to get the permissions, its to late? sometimes you just have to get on with it? Anyone on here who farms, has land that borders a river knows this? My case in point, i have a stretch of grazing that borders the river crouch, its chocked to the t...s with rubbish, dead trees, etc, 2 years back we cleared a piece of this stretch, only time in my book, to safely do this is late summer, when the water level is low enough to be able to get in the river? common sense? If you leave it to now, its flooding, it flooded burst its banks the other week, the trouble with this river is simple, my bit i can clear, its down stream?

Believe it or not this is the analogy I used to differentiate the Dutch with the English, the Dutch is this just get on with the job especially if it needs to be done because of the implications of if it isn't done rather that the procrastinate with tea and biscuits with the English who then panic when it goes wrong....
The solution is actually simple, remove EA and any other central government organisation from the management of these regional entities ( ie decentralisation of power/control) then create a regional/local entity elected by those directly effected by the resource issue and give them the mandate and empower them to maintain and mitigate appropriately the resource of responsibly.