Liquid N

[Headless chicken]

Just considering this as an option. Our land base is now a distance away at times and it’s a pain in the arse carrying bags about the place. Coupled with the bloody handles taring were looking to explore our options.

I assume you’ve got a tank on farm?
Where do you buy it?
how does it compare price wise?
what about liquid P&k?
has anyone tried Foliar feeding?
is it normal spray nozzles?
do we need an all singing and dancing sprayer?
Any idea on application rates? Ie to give a guide how far 2000l would go

 

[teslacoils]

Tank on farm.
It was supplied by omex.
It's dearer than solid.
Suspension p&k needs fancy gear. Just use fibriphos instead.
No.
No, I use chafer dribble bars which are good.
Not really. You need a pressure washer to keep it clean though.
22n 11so3 by weight so I use approximately a ton per hectare. That's 813 litres a hectare. So it's a massive pita.

 

[Shutesy]

Just considering this as an option. Our land base is now a distance away at times and it’s a pain in the arse carrying bags about the place. Coupled with the bloody handles taring were looking to explore our options.

I assume you’ve got a tank on farm?
Where do you buy it?
how does it compare price wise?
what about liquid P&k?
has anyone tried Foliar feeding?
is it normal spray nozzles?
do we need an all singing and dancing sprayer?
Any idea on application rates? Ie to give a guide how far 2000l would go

-Tank supplied by OMEX but you can buy your own if needed, make sure its a fertiliser tank not just a water tank.
-We buy from OMEX they have always been the best on price when we have shopped around.
-Fractionally more expensive but there's not a lot in it, and the greater yield from headlands alone due to accurate application probably pays for it IMO.
-We used to use MOP and TSP for P and K but switching to Fibrophos for our requirements from this summer, not worth bothering with liquid P and K it gets v expensive.
-Not tried that here.
-Definitely not normal nozzles unless pre-em, fine mist of liquid N through a spray nozzle will scorch and possibly kill most crops. We use Hardi Quintastream 5 hole fert nozzles, other nozzles are available or dribble bars.
-Not really but tech like GPS autoshutoff etc make application as accurate as possible avoiding overlaps, you will need to clean it off after every day of liquid N application. We bought a high spec mounted sprayer when we changed 3 years ago with the idea being we weren't likely to buy another fert spreader so spent a bit more on the sprayer.
-Application rates vary depending on the analysis of the fert, I tend to do most applications around 220l/ha to give roughly 65kg/ha N with the 24N fert I use. So 2000l wouldn't quite do 10ha for me.

What acreage are you farming?

 

[Brisel]

• Rent tanks from BFS, JH Bunn, Frontier, Yara or Omex if you don't want to buy. Over a certain % of turnover of product you don't pay anything. Rent is normally around £1k/tank with a rebate of £800 if you use their product though there are deals to be had. Suppliers would like you to have at least 50% of peak spring requirements in store to ease the burden on tankers. Product pricing encourages you to put up tanks and buy a good % in the autumn so you're full going into the busy season. You will need a concrete base of at least 6". A 50 m3 tank can weigh 70 tonnes & they will split if on uneven ground. Any stones underneath will be pushed up though the skin.
• Suppliers listed above. There may be others but those are the main ones. They are all pretty competitive, so choosing to rent tanks from one won't mean you're being bent over and charged more for using them exclusively. I use a buying group who make sure they are on the ball so I'm not paying any more than the next person with a different supplier.
• Price is comparable per kg of nutrient with Nitram or Extran. That's fine for wide tramlines where you can't reliably spread cheapo imported urea or AN grades and would be on the pukka solid product only anyway, less so on 24m or narrower.
• You can't get strong K in liquid form as it just doesn't dissolve well enough. You can get a fair amount of P into liquid. I only use N+S liquids, preferring to do P and K separately with solid straights at variable rate. NPK liquids can settle out in the tank if left for a while. Don't even consider suspensions without the proper specialist equipment though there are plenty of contractors about who can do this far cheaper than you ever will.
• Not tried foliar feeding apart from some Nufol on milling wheat to boost protein.
• Nooooo! Normal spray nozzles will have an effect on the crop similar to napalm. Fertiliser nozzles only. Dribble bars are best but nozzles are ok. Aim for 1-4 bar, no higher.
• An ordinary sprayer will cope but liquid fertiliser is highly corrosive and eats mild steel even if you wash it down every night. Liquid N is 1.3 times as dense as water, so consider the extra weight on the chassis and axles if you fill it full, which you will. Dose rates are from 100 - 500 l/ha so consider the pump capacity and spray line size
• Have a look at this for an idea of product concentration. There are tables of dose rates/ha too which will help you decide which offers the best compromise between output and analysis. https://www.yara.co.uk/crop-nutrition/fertiliser/liquid/

Other considerations

• Crop scorch is a big risk
• Product is listed as weight/weight by most, so you're buying by the tonne. You'll have to do some maths when working out litres/ha and nozzle choice. Yara sell by the cubic metre (weight/volume) which makes life easier as 100 litres/ha of 30%N gives you 30 kg/ha of N. Beware when comparing different suppliers because of this as N30 will mean different things according to which method.
• Your sprayer will be busier than before, so consider logistics and reliability implications
• If you've got a lot to do, you will end up doing liquid fertiliser in the wind or rain or both. Liquid N on a wet leaf that is drying will be very badly scorched. Hot sun and strong winds also increase the risk. You want the streams of fertiliser to hit the ground, not the leaf as much as possible.
• Handling bulk liquid is easier than needing forklifts to chuck bags around but do consider infrastructure/logistics
• Urea liquids carry a lower scorch risk but the maximum concentration is around 20% N which means much bigger dose rates and the means to apply it.

 

[Headless chicken]

-Tank supplied by OMEX but you can buy your own if needed, make sure its a fertiliser tank not just a water tank.
-We buy from OMEX they have always been the best on price when we have shopped around.
-Fractionally more expensive but there's not a lot in it, and the greater yield from headlands alone due to accurate application probably pays for it IMO.
-We used to use MOP and TSP for P and K but switching to Fibrophos for our requirements from this summer, not worth bothering with liquid P and K it gets v expensive.
-Not tried that here.
-Definitely not normal nozzles unless pre-em, fine mist of liquid N through a spray nozzle will scorch and possibly kill most crops. We use Hardi Quintastream 5 hole fert nozzles, other nozzles are available or dribble bars.
-Not really but tech like GPS autoshutoff etc make application as accurate as possible avoiding overlaps, you will need to clean it off after every day of liquid N application. We bought a high spec mounted sprayer when we changed 3 years ago with the idea being we weren't likely to buy another fert spreader so spent a bit more on the sprayer.
-Application rates vary depending on the analysis of the fert, I tend to do most applications around 220l/ha to give roughly 65kg/ha N with the 24N fert I use. So 2000l wouldn't quite do 10ha for me.

What acreage are you farming?

in the region of 500 acres currently mostly grassland but we grew 100 acres of wheat last year and it’s something we’d look at again.
On the cusp of a couple of deals to look at setting up another dairy unit which would increase work load a fair bit.
Access is our biggest issue. We can’t safely bring in a curtainsider which is a nightmare for arranging delivery.
we also have no undercover storage currently meaning bags are sitting out all winter as I like to buy October time I line with cash flow.
I also feel we’re getting too many spillages trying to squeeze the last bag into the spinner.

big shortage of sprayers locally due to being mostly grassland area and the current sprayer man has enough work for another sprayer 40% of the time.

 

[Brisel]

Liquid fertiliser is delivered by the artic load. Tankers are usually 40' long, the same as tippers. Tank sites will need regular tanker access & there is security to consider if you want to put them by a roadside or in a remote yard. Bunding the tank is not compulsory yet but advisable. The clear up cost of 30,000-50,000 litres of fertiliser won't be cheap!

 

[teslacoils]

Pay neighbour to sort your arable fert for you. Liquid seems like the tits but in reality I've been trying to get shut of this last 35000lt for three years now and it never fits in.

 

[ewald]

Much easier to apply an accurate rate through the sprayer than solid through a basic spreader (obviously weigh cells improve this)
Less wastage - if you have a bit left, it goes back into the tank rather than putting the last of the bag onto the field near the house....
With no shed to store bags, liquid is a no brainer

 

[Clive]

Just considering this as an option. Our land base is now a distance away at times and it’s a pain in the arse carrying bags about the place. Coupled with the bloody handles taring were looking to explore our options.

I assume you’ve got a tank on farm?
Where do you buy it?
how does it compare price wise?
what about liquid P&k?
has anyone tried Foliar feeding?
is it normal spray nozzles?
do we need an all singing and dancing sprayer?
Any idea on application rates? Ie to give a guide how far 2000l would go

buy your tanks - the fert is cheaper ! nothing is ever “free”

Omex, Yara, BFS and make our own

home brew is cheaper than soild. bought in more expensive

liquid P&K is not economic - use fibrophos instead

foliar feed yes - jury is out though

not normal nozzles, use dribble bars or umbrella jets

any sprayer can do it if pump is big enough

x3 300L application typical on wheat or OSR etc


far better than solid logistically, agronomically and environmentally - headlands actually yield same as field middles now

 

[Brisel]

One advantage of solid through a spinner is that if you’re off line a bit you won’t see misses or overlaps in grass. With liquid it’s very visible which is why it’s more popular in arable areas with tramlines and more GPS equipped kit.

 

[Headless chicken]

Liquid fertiliser is delivered by the artic load. Tankers are usually 40' long, the same as tippers. Tank sites will need regular tanker access & there is security to consider if you want to put them by a roadside or in a remote yard. Bunding the tank is not compulsory yet but advisable. The clear up cost of 30,000-50,000 litres of fertiliser won't be cheap!

length isn’t really the issue it’s more the height and length together.

 

[deleted user 837354]

No-brainer for the acreage and type of farm envisaged. Apply in rain, wind or whatever. One contractor around here gets the deliveries to coincide with application and carts it about to customer farms. You just need a good sprayer driver who is motivated and happy in his work. Having your own sprayer for cereals is probably a boon in itself. Either that or your workload will be greater and so greater priority by contractors.

For grassland you will want to be using N + S as described above. You will also find the kick in your grass is faster, plus less going in hedges and the like- means less weed growth in hedges. Professionalism and accuracy in N use will pay dividends over time also.

Tanker man can unload with minimal help, no storage of bags and no handler required- a big boon for a dairy farm as the loader is often the busiest machine. No dust, no bags, no fudging about. If you haven't got a GPS equipped half decent sprayer then get one, scrap/sell the fertiliser spreader.

Any P and K you can either apply via a spreader/contractor or better yet, get fibrophos or similar tipped up and spread by third party.

I had several dairy + arable customers who went liquid because of their arable area and then realised it worked well for their grass. None of them have gone back. No need to store bags is a huge bonus.

 

[Clive]

One advantage of solid through a spinner is that if you’re off line a bit you won’t see misses or overlaps in grass. With liquid it’s very visible which is why it’s more popular in arable areas with tramlines and more GPS equipped kit.

surely it’s better to see your mistakes do you can do something about them next year ?

ignorance doesn’t make anyone a better farmer or more profitable

 

[Brisel]

surely it’s better to see your mistakes do you can do something about them next year ?

ignorance doesn’t make anyone a better farmer or more profitable

You've clearly never used blob markers only for spraying

 

[Godber]

Going off track a bit here...but does anyone use bulk AN/urea? No bags to dispose of but a good high, dry secure store needed.

 

[poppy]

buy your tanks - the fert is cheaper ! nothing is ever “free”

Omex, Yara, BFS and make our own

home brew is cheaper than soild. bought in more expensive

liquid P&K is not economic - use fibrophos instead

foliar feed yes - jury is out though

not normal nozzles, use dribble bars or umbrella jets

any sprayer can do it if pump is big enough

x3 300L application typical on wheat or OSR etc


far better than solid logistically, agronomically and environmentally - headlands actually yield same as field middles now

Have you considered that the middle of the field is yielding less with liquid rather than the headland more, liquid is 50% urea so has the same issues with ammonia looses as straight Urea

 

[Clive]

Have you considered that the middle of the field is yielding less with liquid rather than the headland more, liquid is 50% urea so has the same issues with ammonia looses as straight Urea

no - the middle is yielding more as well according to 16 years of yield data mapping

my yields went up when we stated using liquid N more than any other change we have made

Don’t fall for the agenda ridden hype re An vs urea - do some independent reading on the subject and look at practices in other (hotter) countries - there is a reason AN is so popular in the uk and it’s not an agronomic one !

 

[deleted user 837354]

The large remainder of the rest of the world uses urea, I suspect the main reason is that it is more concentrated so less bulk to move around. More difficult to make a bomb out of as well.

 

[Clive]

The large remainder of the rest of the world uses urea, I suspect the main reason is that it is more concentrated so less bulk to move around. More difficult to make a bomb out of as well.

it’s more down to the rest of the world not having a government so desperate to create a market for their explosive production waste product in the past

 

[deleted user 837354]

Ah that would make complete sense as well.