Low input question

[Two Tone]

WTF is a 'unit' of N?

Our dads way of confusing the hell out of us!

1 cwt / ac of 46% urea = 46 units etc
(1cwt = 50kg. 2.47 ac = 1ha)
This is what the brexiteers want us to use
Not those silly napoleonic kg

I am sat here chuckling to myself at this!

The truth is that most probably, Older farts, like myself still tend to use "Units" rather that KgsN, because it seems simpler to us.
Why?
Before the widespread use of Forklifts and Telehandlers, Fertiliser used to arrive on farm in 1 cwt, then 50Kg bags. When we were Younger farts, we would throw them around with more ease than we now throw 25kg bags!
(Maybe men were men and women....... in those days!)
A 50 kg bag says on the side how many Units it contains, i.e.:
34.5 Ammonium Nitrate
46 Urea
20.10.10 20 units Nitrogen, 10 unit Phosphate, 10 units Potash.

We were also far more used to applying in cwts or Bags/acre
So to us this was easier to understand and to me, still is!

What I find confusing is that today's fertiliser comes in 500kg or 1000 kg bags. Worse still is 600 kg bags! The Units are still in effect still written on the side but refer to to the the Units/50 kg.

I constantly find I mustn't become confused between the terms Kgs Product/ha and KgsN /ha.

Even more so for my (even more of an old fart) tractor driver who applies it, who can visualise cwts more easily than kgs. He wants to know how many cwts/acre he should be putting on, so that he will know if it is going on at the right rate.

My 81 year old Agronomist has got it sussed! He says to covert from Units/acre to KgsN/ha, multiply the units by 1.25.
Between us, we agree what rates we want to use in Units, then convert it to KgsN.
We then covert the Units/ acre to cwts /care, being (multiples of) 50kgs/acre and them multiply this by 2.47 to get the Kgs Product/Ha. So:

100 units/acre of 46 (%) Urea is:
2.17 cwts (50kg) bags/acre
being 5.37 cwts/ha
and 268 Product Kgs/ha

I then go online so that we can set the spreader to where the online (Amazone, in our case) website setting suggests in Kgs Product/ha for 268kgs /ha

I give my tractor driver a list that shows he needs to apply say 2.17 cwts/ acre. That list also shows that each 600kg bag should spread 5.5 acres.

Simples!............Until I have to remember to record it as 100 x 1.25 and cant find my calculator to convert units/acre into KgsN/ha!

Yes, the old ways were definitely much easier, weren't they??????????
Here my chuckling ends.

 

[Robert]

I am sat here chuckling to myself at this!....................................................................Yes, the old ways were definitely much easier, weren't they??????????
Here my chuckling ends.

Thank you, i'm aware of the old maths but this ^ perfectly encapsulates why i'm happy with the logic and simplicity of the metric system!! You must have had time to do all the calculations whilst lugging the 1cwt bags into the hopper; too soft for this nowadays, hats off to you!

 

[Two Tone]

Actually, several years ago (before I discovered TFF to keep me occupied), I designed a Spreadsheet that works it all out for me for every field.

All I have to do is enter what the total amount of Units/acre Nitrogen I am Aiming for on each field/crop and how much of that I want to put on on the first Top-dressing.
I tell it what fertiliser I am going to use (Urea 46% or AN 34.5%, etc)
I also enter how many tonnes of fertiliser I have available and it tells me if I need to buy any more.

It works out everything else for me, including the metric conversions automatically.

I can't show it on here. But if there are any other Older fart sad bar-stewards (or those of you too tight to afford the Gatekeeper software from Farmplan) on here that would like to see it, PM me with an email address and I can forward it onto you.

It makes life very easy for both the Old Farts and the Young Turks amongst us, because it shows everything in both Imperial (Units and cwt) and metric (KgsN and Kgs (Urea or AN) Product).


EDIT: You will need to know a little bit about altering spreadsheets to make it fit your situation. But I might be able to show you how to do it. It's not difficult.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Why do they still put units on the bags?

 

[Hindsight]

Why do they still put units on the bags?

Pub quiz time! I guess a requirement under the fertiliser regulations? Or for old time sakes given the age of farmers!! But no idea really.

 

[Shutesy]

What I find confusing is that today's fertiliser comes in 500kg or 1000 kg bags. Worse still is 600 kg bags! The Units are still in effect still written on the side but refer to to the the Units/50 kg.

Think I'm still confused here, surely if the 600kg bag has 20-10-10 written on the side then for every 100kg in that bag there is 20kg of N, 10kg P and 10kg K. So if i wanted to apply 50kg/ha of N I would need 250 kg/ha of product? So the 20-10-10 shows the amount of each mineral in kg per 100kg of product in the bag.

 

[Flat 10]

Why do they still put units on the bags?

I don't think they do? Just percentages? They are not units unless you are buying fert in 1 cwt bags....

 

[Flat 10]

Think I'm still confused here, surely if the 600kg bag has 20-10-10 written on the side then for every 100kg in that bag there is 20kg of N, 10kg P and 10kg K. So if i wanted to apply 50kg/ha of N I would need 250 kg/ha of product? So the 20-10-10 shows the amount of each mineral in kg per 100kg of product in the bag.

Beat me to it...,,

 

[franklin]

Should anyone finding the idea of multiplying or dividing by the conversion factors *really* be sat on the seat of a however-many-thousand pound tractor and spreading kit, applying a costly input to your valuable crops? You wouldnt let someone do your accounts who didnt know how to work out the net value of something that came with vat on it. It's maths that I would expect my 9 year old to a) remember and b) be able to apply.

You can all look rosily on pounds and ounces, but the best bit about the metric system is that it is so bloomin easy.

*tin hat*

 

[limestone brash]

The metric system is wonderful just like the eu single market
Unfortunately lots of UK farmers just don't trust it - too European for them!

 

[bankrupt]

I am sat here chuckling to myself at this!

Fertiliser used to arrive on farm in 1 cwt, then 50Kg bags.

Not here, Two Tone.

It was always 1.25 cwt (16 bags/ton) Ammonium Sulphate @ 21% N.

63.5 Kg.

Same price (per unit!) as 15% Nitro-Chalk but c/w free Sulphur.

Plain bags, 7-ply, tar impregnated.

Work the Tullos hard all day and 200 or so bags always made a very good bonfire come knocking-off time.




http://www.agrimanuals.com/tullos-6...structions--parts-manual-original-17501-p.asp

 

[deere66]

Think I'm still confused here, surely if the 600kg bag has 20-10-10 written on the side then for every 100kg in that bag there is 20kg of N, 10kg P and 10kg K. So if i wanted to apply 50kg/ha of N I would need 250 kg/ha of product? So the 20-10-10 shows the amount of each mineral in kg per 100kg of product in the bag.

Your 50kg/ha is 40 units/ac or 2cwt of 20.10.10

 

[Two Tone]

Should anyone finding the idea of multiplying or dividing by the conversion factors *really* be sat on the seat of a however-many-thousand pound tractor and spreading kit, applying a costly input to your valuable crops? You wouldnt let someone do your accounts who didnt know how to work out the net value of something that came with vat on it. It's maths that I would expect my 9 year old to a) remember and b) be able to apply.

You can all look rosily on pounds and ounces, but the best bit about the metric system is that it is so bloomin easy.

*tin hat*

I hope that *tin hat* of yours is made of Tungsten Carbide steel @static !!!

We had the Cotswold Arable Study Group round here this afternoon to look at the crops. I apologised for the fact that I was giving them fertiliser figures in Units, to which a resounding "Thank goodness!" was heard from nearly all who were present!

Admittedly though, the Old Farts did outnumber the Young Turks (by quit a long way)!

 

[franklin]

Tin hat comes as standard. If some want units then fine. If some want metric then fine. If someones job is applying fert, then they ought know how to convert beween the two. And people who cant work out 80% or 125% of something shouldnt be allowed to even leave primary school.

 

[An Gof]

Tin hat comes as standard. If some want units then fine. If some want metric then fine. If someones job is applying fert, then they ought know how to convert beween the two. And people who cant work out 80% or 125% of something shouldnt be allowed to even leave primary school.

It's marvellous that you excelled at mathematics when at primary school; but such a pity that you failed to grasp the intricacies of punctuation.

 

[e3120]

It's marvellous that you excelled at mathematics when at primary school; but such a pity that you failed to grasp the intricacies of punctuation.

Thankfully a punctuation error isn't likely to affect his bottom line or get him into trouble with the authorities.

 

[Flat 10]

Not here, Two Tone.

It was always 1.25 cwt (16 bags/ton) Ammonium Sulphate @ 21% N.

63.5 Kg.

Same price (per unit!) as 15% Nitro-Chalk but c/w free Sulphur.

Plain bags, 7-ply, tar impregnated.

Work the Tullos hard all day and 200 or so bags always made a very good bonfire come knocking-off time.




http://www.agrimanuals.com/tullos-6...structions--parts-manual-original-17501-p.asp

Blimey, 1.25cwt. Too much for me! And that spreader looks like it around with the ark....

 

[Crabtree]

Blimey, 1.25cwt. Too much for me! And that spreader looks like it around with the ark....

Yes, real state of the ark !! That would encourage low inputs : hand loading of fertiliser ?!
Maths, punctuation and now history lessons, this threads becoming invaluable !

In all seriousness, it probably is a reminder that we all reach for chemical solutions far too readily, and most of the posts about lowering inputs are just 'tweaking around the edges' with a bit less nitrogen and 1 less fungicide. I'm not saying its not worth aiming for, just not radical enough.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Tin hat comes as standard. If some want units then fine. If some want metric then fine. If someones job is applying fert, then they ought know how to convert beween the two. And people who cant work out 80% or 125% of something shouldnt be allowed to even leave primary school.

I still generally work in unit acre for fert because my dad and fert spreader man only want to work in units/ acre. Also I dont need to do the maths to turn it into ha because units acre still works ok it suits the field sizes and suits the numbers on the bag!

 

[bankrupt]

Yes, real state of the ark !!

To be fair, Crabtree, we traded in our old 6 plate and flicker for a 14 plate in 1954.

In fact, sulphate of ammonia only took a dive hereabouts because the first decent disc machine we had in 1958 really couldn't hack it.