he's a marvelous erudite sort..... needs more beer though.They should maybe read the very excellent Anton Coaker article in the Agriculture section about this very subject. I’m sure you’d agree @egbert . Have you had a chance to read it yet? It really is very good
Managing pasture by cutting and leaving long grass?
- Thread starter eastdevonhobbyist
- Start date
primmiemoo
Member
- Location
- Devon
A young person has just suggested guinea pigs. Lots of Guinea pigs in movable runs. Can't have enough Guinea pigs, apparently.
No, I don't know the emission levels of Guinea pigs... .
No, I don't know the emission levels of Guinea pigs... .
They eat them in Peru so could be a good shout for a new "low emission" protein.
primmiemoo
Member
- Location
- Devon
Needs to work on his spelling though
Castle Farm
Member
Just top it and leave the rows to rot down.It takes a while, but all gets taken down eventually by worms ect.
- Location
- Devon
The OP seems to have gone AWOL so I found this;
I'm not sure quite how much they were trying to sell 3.7 acres of grass with 2500 trees in it for. . . . .
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I looked by at their previous posts too and though the same thing
Coximus
Member
Well it sounds like carbon storage IE Carbon offset is something your interested in - I have done this and sold the offsets....
So.
1. 4% is a good figure to start with, depending on your soil type you may never get it above 5 to 7% and half of that will be ephemeral from each year.
Sandy soils are difficult to sequester much in, and you can work hard to get to 5% but youll burn lots of diesel doing it - just leave it is best if you care about carbon.
Clay and loams - each is different but you can push from 6 to 8% with grazing and trampling. after 4 to 5 years grazing you will plataue at the soils carrying limit. Mowing and mulching ...... who knows but it the mean time youve burnt lots of fuel.
2. If the tree guards are more than 3ft high, you could graze lambs, and from personla experience while their is plenty of grass sheep wont bother trees in guards. Look into shropshire sheep and easycares if your worried about rubbing.
3. If youve planted more than 20 trees and have weeds as you describe - no one without a lobotomy is going to pay you for the grass, its worth less than the fuel cost to mow it.
4. Get it grazed and trampled/
So.
1. 4% is a good figure to start with, depending on your soil type you may never get it above 5 to 7% and half of that will be ephemeral from each year.
Sandy soils are difficult to sequester much in, and you can work hard to get to 5% but youll burn lots of diesel doing it - just leave it is best if you care about carbon.
Clay and loams - each is different but you can push from 6 to 8% with grazing and trampling. after 4 to 5 years grazing you will plataue at the soils carrying limit. Mowing and mulching ...... who knows but it the mean time youve burnt lots of fuel.
2. If the tree guards are more than 3ft high, you could graze lambs, and from personla experience while their is plenty of grass sheep wont bother trees in guards. Look into shropshire sheep and easycares if your worried about rubbing.
3. If youve planted more than 20 trees and have weeds as you describe - no one without a lobotomy is going to pay you for the grass, its worth less than the fuel cost to mow it.
4. Get it grazed and trampled/
In my limited (lifetime! ) experience our sheep don`t eat the grass very well around the edges of fields where there are trees in the hedge-line and in fact they don`t seem to like grass that grows under the occasional tree we have in the "middle" of fields either (obviously there`s "something" missing in the grass).
It`s the first I`ve heard of trees "fixing" nitrogen too - I fear trees take the goodness (and moisture!) out of land rather than putting it back..... The other point about trees is that they make it VERY difficult to get that last important dryness in hay if there`s too many of them - I used to try making hay in little 2 acre fields with hedges and trees around the outsides of them - what a job getting good dry hay around the outsides, and there`s not much "middle" in fields of that size!!
With all respect to the OP the ONLY place for trees is in wooded areas or around the perimeter of fields.......
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Cut it and bale it.
If the prices are no good now (which is likely) then they will probably be worth a good deal more in the middle of winter.
Acidification and shading of the perennial grasses' growing points are why I'm not advocating topping in this context - you're effectively starting a micro-brewery on the soil surface which will work against your aims to increase SOC.
The main source of humic matter in the soil is from the liquid carbon pathway - photosynthesis - and is supported by returning OM from plant growth.
The old scientific belief was that plant residue was the driver of OM in the soil profile but it's been clearly demonstrated to be a false one - otherwise native woodland would have much better soil than native grassland.
In theory, the ideal tree stocking rate is upwards of 1000 stems/ha - but in practice it's 28-35 s/ha + nonselective grazing + long recovery periods in between.
I wish our governments would listen to the science on this one.
If the prices are no good now (which is likely) then they will probably be worth a good deal more in the middle of winter.
Acidification and shading of the perennial grasses' growing points are why I'm not advocating topping in this context - you're effectively starting a micro-brewery on the soil surface which will work against your aims to increase SOC.
The main source of humic matter in the soil is from the liquid carbon pathway - photosynthesis - and is supported by returning OM from plant growth.
The old scientific belief was that plant residue was the driver of OM in the soil profile but it's been clearly demonstrated to be a false one - otherwise native woodland would have much better soil than native grassland.
In theory, the ideal tree stocking rate is upwards of 1000 stems/ha - but in practice it's 28-35 s/ha + nonselective grazing + long recovery periods in between.
I wish our governments would listen to the science on this one.
Cattle don’t like the grass under trees either. The whole idea of silvopasture doesn’t excite me at all. Watched a short video (part of the energy video @Kiwi Pete posted the other day) about a silvopasture enthusiast who was doing marvellous things in the States. The whole thing made me badly, looked an absolute nightmare to manage. Small bit of land unsurprisingly.
My tuppenyworth, flail topping will gradually cause more and more weed problems over time as a % of grass will die off every time if there are no animals there to move it around/eat it once cut. "Weeds" might be completely acceptable to the OP.
- Location
- Devon
I like the premise of silvopasture but I think it mainly succeeds where there are no hedgerows.
A good healthy hedge will surely do everything a tree will and more.
I think dealing with overgrown grass always risks selection of the least desirable re-growth whether flailed or cut and left. It doesn't favour wildflowers or palatable grasses.
I don't understand why people who want trees don't plant orchards.
Ah...when is an orchard not silvo pasture?
Well, when you've reinvented the wheel i suppose.
Some trees do fix nitrogen - alder from recollection.
Others are notorious for taking first dibs on nutrients....ash famously.
On balance, they're good for soil fertility, with deeper roots etc. But you don't get ought for nought.
- Location
- Devon
Soils that have developed under forest vegetation usually have comparably low organic-matter levels. There are at least two reasons for these levels:
- trees produce a much smaller root mass per acre than grass plants, and
- trees do not die back and decompose every year. Instead, much of the organic material in a forest is tied up in the tree instead of being returned to the soil.
It's a hugely moveable feast.
As I'm sure you've seen me observe, there are plenty of virgin (temperate and tropical) forests, where 'the boulders still poke through the soil'.
And equally, 'prairie' conditions resulting in very deep soil are rare, and fragile.
Expanding on the 'trees in pasture', there are so many variables that it's hard to nail down a definitive answer.
Where there are limited shade trees, stock congregate, and the resulting nitrates make the grass barely palatable under trees.
Deciduous trees - whether in the hedge, or out in the field, cycle and shed huge quantities of material.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Probably the ideal biome /picture to mimic is "savannah" and not "woods"
that's if you want a highly functional and profitable landscape, which is at odds with "carbon offsetting" as it stands - this is more a lever to reduce the number of acres under private ownership and control than anything it's marketed as achieving
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
I'd prefer to use mainly short-growing trees that let ample light onto "the deck", a great way to get the best of both worlds. You can still raise the early-season temperature significantly by using smaller trees and shrubs, big grasses to break up the wind and improve the microclimate
In NZ many farms incorporate tall "shelterbelts" but the main benefits are at least 100m or more from the trees due to height and distance between shelterbelts. Shorter ones (flax etc) with shorter trees tend to give much better allround benefits