Manitou 634 120 starting issue

[Munkul]

Hello,
we have just bought this machine second hand, 2011 with 3.9k hours, it runs perfectly in every way APART from starting. It's a power shift with mercedes engine.

Sometimes it cranks at full speed but doesnt catch for ages. Sometimes it barely cranks but catches quickly.
We have all taken to leaving the ignition on for 10 seconds before cranking since it seems to start much faster that way.

It doesnt seem to make any difference if cold or hot, and it always catches eventually. Ive been told its a common fault with manitous that generally doesnt cause any trouble... other than being extremely annoying!

Any ideas? common faults causing these symptoms?

@ACEngineering hoping you will help... it would be much appreciated!

 

[ACEngineering]

Hello,
we have just bought this machine second hand, 2011 with 3.9k hours, it runs perfectly in every way APART from starting. It's a power shift with mercedes engine.

Sometimes it cranks at full speed but doesnt catch for ages. Sometimes it barely cranks but catches quickly.
We have all taken to leaving the ignition on for 10 seconds before cranking since it seems to start much faster that way.

It doesnt seem to make any difference if cold or hot, and it always catches eventually. Ive been told its a common fault with manitous that generally doesnt cause any trouble... other than being extremely annoying!

Any ideas? common faults causing these symptoms?

@ACEngineering hoping you will help... it would be much appreciated!

Hello

If its a merc engine then the genuine factory fit starter motors are really very poor possibly you could say unfit for purpose they are that bad.

I stock a iskra/mahle 4.2kw replacement which is far better and solves any starting issues i have ever had with the merc.

Not wanting to be big headed or nothing either but I'm fairly confident I'm the only person in uk that has fitted them or stocks one?

Couple of trade outlets show it on there websites but when it comes down to it iskra/mahle uk say I'm the only one thats actually bought it in uk!
Found that out when i wanted one in a hurry and phoned iskra uk to ask if they knew of anyone that might have one in stock. And was surprised to hear no your the only one buying it

Pity i didnt ring then first cause i wasted half a day on internet and phone getting no were.

 

[Mursal]

As above and check all connection from the battery to the starter and all earth straps.
Especially where you cant see positive corrode more than negative
If in doubt about a lead, use a jump lead to test.

 

[ACEngineering]

As above and check all connection from the battery to the starter and all earth straps.
Especially where you cant see positive corrode more than negative
If in doubt about a lead, use a jump lead to test.

Leads are part of the trouble on them. Cause they moved battery to front chassis under boom. So battery leads went from less than 1metre long to approx 6 metres at a guess.
Although they did go up a cable size but battery stayed the same till late built ones where they fitted a bigger battery but that didnt help.

 

[Munkul]

Cheers Ace, knew you would know something.

This wouldnt account for the times it cranks at an ok speed but doesn't fire? would this be a fuel problem? it is not related to being hot/cold so I wouldnt have thought it was a lift pump issue.

I have everything needed to service the machine tonight so I'll have a good check over all the leads anyways, and replacing the fuel filter might help with the cranking.

Once I've done that we'll maybe look into buying the better starter motor

 

[ACEngineering]

Cheers Ace, knew you would know something.

This wouldnt account for the times it cranks at an ok speed but doesn't fire? would this be a fuel problem? it is not related to being hot/cold so I wouldnt have thought it was a lift pump issue.

I have everything needed to service the machine tonight so I'll have a good check over all the leads anyways, and replacing the fuel filter might help with the cranking.

Once I've done that we'll maybe look into buying the better starter motor

Only upgrading the starter will cure it.
You can put bigger leads and bigger battery it makes little differance starter just dont have enough grunt.

In the past i have fitted them to machines with less than 500hrs on the originals are that bad!
There was a few part number changes from manitou but non of them were any good and at one time they were near £700 but have dropped back a little mow to around £500!
The iskra is a fair bit less than that.

 

[ACEngineering]

They do crank at times and not fire but its all to do with starter not turning it quick enough to build up rail pressure for injectors to turn on.
New starter and it'll go as soon as you touch the key every time any weather.

 

[Timbo]

They do crank at times and not fire but its all to do with starter not turning it quick enough to build up rail pressure for injectors to turn on.
New starter and it'll go as soon as you touch the key every time any weather.

Starting parameters are usually an industry standard 400rpm cranking speed. Below this ecu wont fire injectors no matter what.

 

[ACEngineering]

Worth noting on the merc you cant just bolt any old starter on, the starter is triggered via the engine ECU so the starter has to have a soft start relay on it or they would burn out the ECU.

 

[Munkul]

Once we've got 1st cut in the pit next week, I'll probably get one ordered after that.

Is its the 4.2kw motor listed on your website for perkins 1000 and 1100 series engines? or is it a ring you up job?

 

[Right-arm fast]

Worth noting on the merc you cant just bolt any old starter on, the starter is triggered via the engine ECU so the starter has to have a soft start relay on it or they would burn out the ECU.

Why would they do that! They are control freaks as every fecking thing on the machines these days have to be controlled by an ecu. Only the operator is not plugged in these days. It’s electronic control for the sake of it as it offers no benefit whatsoever to the operator and to top it off the starter sounds as though it isn’t up to the job and probably bloody expensive as a result. Fecking crazy. I despair!

 

[ACEngineering]

Once we've got 1st cut in the pit next week, I'll probably get one ordered after that.

Is its the 4.2kw motor listed on your website for perkins 1000 and 1100 series engines? or is it a ring you up job?

No its not the perkins one. Look on manitou parts page and scroll down till you find starter same as pic i posted above.

 

[ACEngineering]

Why would they do that! They are control freaks as every fecking thing on the machines these days have to be controlled by an ecu. Only the operator is not plugged in these days. It’s electronic control for the sake of it as it offers no benefit whatsoever to the operator and to top it off the starter sounds as though it isn’t up to the job and probably bloody expensive as a result. Fecking crazy. I despair!

Its the way it is. But yes original starter isnt up to the job and manitou should have bought a better starter for it than just using the one merc supplied which would just about be okay if engine was in a lorry type application but 2 hydraulic pumps a 90deg gearbox and torque converter trany all add extra load.

 

[Munkul]

spot on.

did the engine and transmission service last night, what a pest the transmission oil filter is to get out! I had to drop one side of the trans to get it out and new one in... is this normal?
Also looks like I have a slight weep coming from the angle gearbox oil seal where the cardan shaft goes in.... what sort of job is this? For now I'm going to leave it and come back to it in a month's time...

 

[Farmer mk1]

There was one series of manitou in this size around this age which the fuel lines was all push fit pipe connectors. This is a major fault as after time they all suck air which makes them nearly impossible to start. I believe it was the merc engines which had these fittings on the fuel lines. I swapped 4 machines pipe work in the time I was at a dealer. Hope this helps.

 

[ACEngineering]

There was one series of manitou in this size around this age which the fuel lines was all push fit pipe connectors. This is a major fault as after time they all suck air which makes them nearly impossible to start. I believe it was the merc engines which had these fittings on the fuel lines. I swapped 4 machines pipe work in the time I was at a dealer. Hope this helps.

Never had any trouble with the push fit voss fittings, don't think the merc has many of them IMO, the perkins engines ones has quite a lot. its the rubber pipe underneath the outer metal braiding that perishes most of the time and sucks are if anything.

 

[ACEngineering]

spot on.

did the engine and transmission service last night, what a pest the transmission oil filter is to get out! I had to drop one side of the trans to get it out and new one in... is this normal?
Also looks like I have a slight weep coming from the angle gearbox oil seal where the cardan shaft goes in.... what sort of job is this? For now I'm going to leave it and come back to it in a month's time...

Good god no you don't half drop the transmission out to change the filter

Forget undoing the filter on machine that's hard work, remove the big wiring connector above filter, then undo the pilot accumulator clamp and pull the bottle out of the way (leave pipe on it)

Remove the throttle pot switch bracket out of the way, get 2 big cable ties and use it to hold the cab heater hoses and aircon pipes out of the way.

undo the 2 bolts holding the filter head to the transmission, then stick it in a vice and replace the filter tighten it up very tight they run at 16 bar oil pressure. Refit with 2 new orings ideally.



90deg angle gearbox problems Common

remove propshaft, undo the bolt on input flange and throw it in the scrap, pull off the flange and fit new oil seal, clean up plaster it all in Loctite splines and all. Refit with new Bolt and single thick upgraded washer if it didn't have it already, torque bolt to 110nm no more they like to shear off! (Book setting is 95nm to 120nm)

or fit a new one 10 instock getting down them quite quick now, sold 15 since Sept last year

 

[Munkul]

i thought about undoing the filter head, but didnt know what gaskets were needed and I didnt want another trip to Lloyds today for a new one! Makes sense though - if I'd known that was the "usual" way to do it, that's how I would have done it. The manual was no help at all. Anyway I'll do it your way next time

seems like the oil seal will be an easy job I'll wait til it gives up completely before changing the gearbox, lol

 

[ACEngineering]

i thought about undoing the filter head, but didnt know what gaskets were needed and I didnt want another trip to Lloyds today for a new one! Makes sense though - if I'd known that was the "usual" way to do it, that's how I would have done it. The manual was no help at all. Anyway I'll do it your way next time

seems like the oil seal will be an easy job I'll wait til it gives up completely before changing the gearbox, lol

easy so long as the seals not failed cause the input shaft bearings are shot or flange loose on spline.

Also the "genuine" oil seal manitou send out to replace the old one isn't the same, it will do the job but its just a standard single lip black nitrile seal were as the old one is a tin cover 2 lip brown viton seal and the tin cover has a green Loctite style coating on the out side of it.

I just order 2 lip viton seals from local bearing shop they are not tin cover but at least they are 2 lip and brown not black.