Mating sheep on red clover swards field lab

[Tim W]

There is a wad of published research findings from both Australia and NZ from 40 odd years ago. I personally see no point in doing grazing trials when the thresholds affecting ewe fertility are already known.

I would agree, however the point in the trials is probably to give farmers confidence ---they like to hear information/experience from other local farmers rather than from research done years ago by people they don't know ---that's just the way farmers are

 

[Derrick Hughes]

We're investigating if grazing ewes on grass leys containing red clover affects their fertility as part of a new field lab with Innovative Farmers. After an initial meeting, one of our trial farmers could no longer participate so we are looking for another (preferably someone based in the West Midlands or Welsh borders) to take part.
If you have some established grass leys containing red clover and are willing to mate a group of at least 50 ewes on them, we would be grateful for your help with this research. Contact Consultant Gillian Preece if you are able to take part [email protected] or 07741 384992

More information on what will be involved can be found on the Innovative Farmers website.
Even if you can't help but would be interested in the results, you can follow progress on the website too. Thanks!

What Adas need is their own independant Resurch Farm where they could do this sort of work over a number of years
Cant see you proving much over a one year trail ,to many variables

 

[Mixedupfarmer]

@CopperBeech sounds like you would be a good one for this! Yes the research that originally said red clover affects fertility was done in the 60s and 70s in the southern hemisphere. Pure red clover swards were used for that research too, not mixed swards. If we can prove here on multiple farms that it doesn't have an effect, maybe more will give it a go...

Be interested to know what affect continual grazing of mid tier GS4 leys has on fertility, and if the time of they are tupped on it has any affect as well.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

We're investigating if grazing ewes on grass leys containing red clover affects their fertility as part of a new field lab with Innovative Farmers. After an initial meeting, one of our trial farmers could no longer participate so we are looking for another (preferably someone based in the West Midlands or Welsh borders) to take part.
If you have some established grass leys containing red clover and are willing to mate a group of at least 50 ewes on them, we would be grateful for your help with this research. Contact Consultant Gillian Preece if you are able to take part [email protected] or 07741 384992

More information on what will be involved can be found on the Innovative Farmers website.
Even if you can't help but would be interested in the results, you can follow progress on the website too. Thanks!

Have you tested any legumes to see what levels are and why does no one publish figures , they must know if they sell veriaties as lower

 

[yellowbelly]

What Adas need is their own independant Resurch Farm where they could do this sort of work over a number of years

Yeah, it would be really handy - they could have them in different areas of the country and give them names like Gleadthorpe, Boxworth, High Mowthorpe, etc. They could do research relevent to their own area and farming type........

......oh, hang on.....

 

[Top Tip.]

Neighbour of mine used to make red clover silage,they started to have severe fertility problems in their herd with up to and over 50% of the cows not settling to the bull . All the experts said that there was no connection with them feeding red clover . This went on for years and they ended up with half the cows they started with. The problem didn’t go away until they stopped feeding the red clover,coincidence, maybe .

 

[Henery]

Be interested to know what affect continual grazing of mid tier GS4 leys has on fertility, and if the time of they are tupped on it has any affect as well.

I’m part of the trial, have been tupping on GS4 , this is the third year. Scanned 188 last year…pure NZ Romney’s

 

[Global ovine]

I’m part of the trial, have been tupping on GS4 , this is the third year. Scanned 188 last year…pure NZ Romney’s

I would expect any flock grazing GS4 pastures, even full time would have such minimal effects from Red Clover derived estrogens to be so low that it would be insignificant. This is because the RC content of such pastures is very low, both in seed % on a weight basis to the total mix per ha and on the resulting % of RC dry matter produced over the year.
Even if the RC used was a high estrogen variety, such a low % of the total DM allocation would not be a danger.

As I have stated above; it all depends on how much Equol is in the post pubescent ewe's system over time. If the sward is RC dominant of a high formanonetin variety, then it should only be used for fattening purposes.

The pragmatic research I suggest would be to measure the formanonetin content of the RC varieties used in all the seed mixes throughout the UK. Then publish a list so seed merchants can make best recommendations based on the farmers' end use of the resulting pasture. This is what resulted from the Subterranean Clover work in Australia (same estrogen as RC) and in NZ after the then new RC cultivar Pawera was released where research proved and explained the detrimental effects. It doesn't take plant breeders long to find low estrogen forms of cultivars proven for other traits such as total DM production and persistence etc.

I would agree, however the point in the trials is probably to give farmers confidence ---they like to hear information/experience from other local farmers rather than from research done years ago by people they don't know ---that's just the way farmers are

That sounds to me to be a void or breakdown in the technology transfer sector. Why should scientists "keep re-inventing the wheel" just because universally relevant knowledge was discovered elsewhere?

 

[SteveHants]

My question about these kind of studies is also - how do you make it a fair test? Surely groups of sheep on different farms, run by different people etc would have a lot of variables?

This kind of thing ought to be in the research proposal, and then ought to be apparent if any papers are published in the scientific literature as a result of the study.

I'm not sure if ADAS make their proposals available online?

I imagine it's one of the reasons they are running several groups.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I’m part of the trial, have been tupping on GS4 , this is the third year. Scanned 188 last year…pure NZ Romney’s

Do you have any other Red Clover leys they graze at other times , Red Clover content in GS4 is quite low

 

[Tim W]

That sounds to me to be a void or breakdown in the technology transfer sector. Why should scientists "keep re-inventing the wheel" just because universally relevant knowledge was discovered elsewhere?

Farmers don't like change & they don't trust science much of the time.. it's just a fact we haven't overcome yet

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Like i said the simple way would be to test forage
But then to push ewes over the 1% threshold the ley would need to be almost pure red clover , trialing on a GS4 would be a pointless exercise

Determination of Phytoestrogen Content in Fresh-Cut Legume Forage​

phytoestrogen values exceeding 1% of dry matter (DM) are associated with reproductive disorders in animals. It is reported that phytoestrogen values remain below that threshold in white clover [5]. The content of isoflavonoids is said to range from 1% to 2% of DM in red clover [1].

 

[Global ovine]

Farmers don't like change & they don't trust science much of the time.. it's just a fact we haven't overcome yet

There is obviously a huge gulf between farmers from different nations. NZ farmers have never voted down a levy increase when its focus is on further research.

 

[Tim W]

There is obviously a huge gulf between farmers from different nations. NZ farmers have never voted down a levy increase when its focus is on further research.

That may well change as UK farmers will have to rely more on facts/science and less on subsidy?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Farmers don't like change & they don't trust science much of the time.. it's just a fact we haven't overcome

That may well change as UK farmers will have to rely more on facts/science and less on subsidy?

So if you were in the market for red clover ,would you prefer if somone showed you independant test results of phytoestrogens levels or just sold it as a lower lower level without any facts to back it up , if you look at published test results the diference between red and thr majority if legumes is quite high

 

[Bury the Trash]

There is obviously a huge gulf between farmers from different nations. NZ farmers have never voted down a levy increase when its focus is on further research.

Neither would we , despite what @T W says.
See above for favourable comments of 'old' ADAS we had an excellent experimental farm at liscombe on Exmoor its work on silage making and feeding beef and sheep was excellent ,practical and I'm sure still shows effect up to today.
As I remember it 'Ordinary' farmers took its advice on board and the open days 'special subject meetings were well attended, although back then there were many more farmers and those involved in it to be fair.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Neither would we , despite what @T W says.
See above for favourable comments of 'old' ADAS we had an excellent experimental farm at liscombe on Exmoor its work on silage making and feeding beef and sheep was excellent ,practical and I'm sure still shows effect up to today.
As I remember it 'Ordinary' farmers took its advice on board and the open days 'special subject meetings were well attended, although back then there were many more farmers and those involved in it to be fair.

Trawscoed did fantasic work , everything from silage addtives fence post etc , totaly independant as well

If ADAS want to do meaningfull work on the subject then test varietes and publish the results that we can all use. but that may not go down well with thier sponsors

 

[Tim W]

So if you were in the market for red clover ,would you prefer if somone showed you independant test results of phytoestrogens levels or just sold it as a lower lower level without any facts to back it up , if you look at published test results the diference between red and thr majority if legumes is quite high

I always look to science and then like to have user reviews if possible

 

[Bury the Trash]

A good reason for not using Red for sheep is that grazing it fairly hard and repeatedly kills it off prematurely ime.

modern bred small/ med./ big leaved (take your pick ) White is far better bet imo as a clover choice for longer term sheep use.

 

[CopperBeech]