Milk from Forage only 100% grass fed

[lazy farmer]

@lazy farmer. I believe you rear all or your heifer replacements with no concentrate?

sorry no due to local politics our heifers are contract reared for 150 days during their first winter. In which time they would eat around 175 kgs of concentrate

 

[Agrispeed]

Not being paid enough for milk seems to be the major factor in people deciding to go grass fed only.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

Not being paid enough for milk seems to be the major factor in people deciding to go grass fed only.

Agree, despite what a lot of the organic guys say, there can be a good return of feeding a small amount of grain. It makes managing certain things, like body condition, much easier and consistent. That premium though really changes the math. I think.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

I talked to Cheyenne Christensen, earlier this year about his grass fed dairy. He lives just a few miles south of me in Wisconsin. He is on a OV 100% grass-fed contract at $42/cwt. Really nice looking cows, semi-seasonal, so still milking year round. Feeds kelp free choice for minerals. Milking all Holsteins, but has been bull bred for a while and the cattle definitely had a different look to them. Moderate length, but quite short, and very wide. Makes any cow that is unpleasant to milk a nurse cow, and lets calves nurse for months...some up to 9 months old. If you google his name there is a few youtube videos that he speaks in, and his email is easy to find. Slow at responding, but has give me some very detailed responses, even when I lived on the other side of the state.

As for raising replacements, I have my own steers out only eating grass, and they are 800 pounds at 13 months old, (if female) I would be very comfortable breeding them in 2 months to (hypothetically) freshen at 2 years old. Mob grazing, leaving lots behind, so they are never hungry. I transitioned them cold-turkey at 140-200 pounds just weaned on to grass and have never looked back. I have another group that is 2 weeks old now that I will be moving out on pasture, so they can start grazing while still getting 2 gallons a day of fresh whole milk. I am hopeful that they can join the big steers and goats in early September. All these steers/calves are high type registered Holsteins, if they can do well on grass a "proper grass-bred animal" should do even better.

I believe the guys I work for have met him several times. What did you think of his cows and place overall? Did it look like he was walking the walk in addition to talking the talk? Isn't he somewhere in the 8000lb range? What was his average DIM?

As far as the replacements go, a lot of it is out of my control. I won't say anything on this forum that I wouldn't say in person to my employers. The first day I showed up here I told him his heifers looked like sh!t. They still look like sh!t, no two ways about it. The ones that will calve next year look ok. The ones I am in charge of raising right now, this years calves, look ok. Nothing to write home about, but they are improving. It seems to me that they do ok till their first winter. Then, in my opinion, there is a lack of quality Forage that is not compensated for by feeding more concentrate.

I don't claim to know it all, but I do know how to raise a heifer that will breed and milk. To say I and my employers have a difference in opinion on what a good heifer is, would be an understatement.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

Focus on getting milk from grazed grass. 5-6kg of grain/protein blend is my ideal for our setup, more than that I don't like with parlor grain feeding, I don't like the big slugs of grain for cow health. Make grass, cereal or sorghum silage to top up slow growth times. Don't know any grass only. I don't think we get paid enough to do that.

Agree on that being about the limit for slug feeding grain. Do you house your cows at all? How do you feed supplemental Forage? How do like the sorghum silage, does it milk well?

As long as grain is reasonably cheap, it pays to feed some. Without a premium added, the economics don't look good here.

 

[cows250]

I believe the guys I work for have met him several times. What did you think of his cows and place overall? Did it look like he was walking the walk in addition to talking the talk? Isn't he somewhere in the 8000lb range? What was his average DIM?

As far as the replacements go, a lot of it is out of my control. I won't say anything on this forum that I wouldn't say in person to my employers. The first day I showed up here I told him his heifers looked like sh!t. They still look like sh!t, no two ways about it. The ones that will calve next year look ok. The ones I am in charge of raising right now, this years calves, look ok. Nothing to write home about, but they are improving. It seems to me that they do ok till their first winter. Then, in my opinion, there is a lack of quality Forage that is not compensated for by feeding more concentrate.

I don't claim to know it all, but I do know how to raise a heifer that will breed and milk. To say I and my employers have a difference in opinion on what a good heifer is, would be an understatement.

I would say everything there looked like it should be. Cows were in very good condition, lots of grass growing everywhere (was mid-June), with groups of milking cows, nurse cows, bulls, and heifers all going into very strong covers and looking fat and happy. Cows were super calm as were the bull group...we walked right next to a single hot wire, with 15 bulls in their daily break, and the bulls did absolutely nothing. Similar with the milkers, drove through the pasture on a gator, but it wasn't milking time so the cows hardly looked at us twice. Right as I was about to leave his kids brought in the milkers, and didn't even bother to close the gate. The only grain those cows might see would be an annual crop (he does annuals on ~5% of his ground per year) that got a little too far or grass seed. Milk components were good and MUN's right around 12.

I hope to be buying some of his younger bulls this year to raise on grass myself. As of lately he hasn't really sold much of anything, all bull calves have been retained (intact) all heifers have been retained, the nurse cow groups have some cows that are simply "extra" in them feeding some very nice looking calves.

He was buying in some organic fertilizer to help boost soil mineral levels, and bought in a fair amount of poor quality hay for bedding, but that was about it. I have a similar soil type to him, (sand) so that is understandable, but I am not "officially" organic, so I keep bring in the neighbor's manure to boost fertility instead.

Currently in the process of setting up a small, single-8 flatbarn parlor. No plans to expand, it sounded like the current stallwork was shot, so this was a good time to transition.

Focus was definitely on soil health and then animal health. Production was not a concern, but if needed he could have easily moved 6-10 cows out of the nurse cow group, weaned some 4-6 month old calves, and put more milk in the tank tomorrow. Fat, protein, and MUN's were closely monitored to assess how the pasture management was affecting the cows. The entire pace of the time I was visiting was very relaxed, for all involved.

 

[lazy farmer]

fascinating could you please explain MUNs not a term I am familiar with.

 

[Sid]

fascinating could you please explain MUNs not a term I am familiar with.

Milk urea nitrogen.
Same as our milk ureas but stated as a percentage i believe.

 

[cows250]

Milk urea nitrogen.
Same as our milk ureas but stated as a percentage i believe.

MUN's are in mg/dL so a 12 would be 0.012% urea in the milk. (Yes, I looked that up.)

On a full TMR ration balanced with (expensive) supplemental Methionine and Lysine, I have seen MUN's as low as 8 be OK, but usually 10-12 is my personal goal. Obviously feeding too little protein causes a reduction in milk production...it also can cause animals to stop adding frame and end up short and fat. But, feeding too much protein is also detrimental. Any "extra" protein needs to be excreted as urea, and that takes energy to do. That is why grazing 6-8" grass makes no sense in my opinion. The protein levels are going to be >20% and the animal is going to have to p!ss out all that extra urea, wasting energy in the process and leading to some very skinny cows. Now, if you feed grain to the cattle somewhat higher protein grass is wanted and leads to a balanced ration. However, with nothing to eat besides grass, the pasture protein levels need to match the animals needs to get optimal production.

 

[awkward]

noval way of looking at it . so what would an average yield / lactation be and what kind milk solids do you expect to produce. what is normal stocking rate per acre

 

[Dead Rabbits]

I would say everything there looked like it should be. Cows were in very good condition, lots of grass growing everywhere (was mid-June), with groups of milking cows, nurse cows, bulls, and heifers all going into very strong covers and looking fat and happy. Cows were super calm as were the bull group...we walked right next to a single hot wire, with 15 bulls in their daily break, and the bulls did absolutely nothing. Similar with the milkers, drove through the pasture on a gator, but it wasn't milking time so the cows hardly looked at us twice. Right as I was about to leave his kids brought in the milkers, and didn't even bother to close the gate. The only grain those cows might see would be an annual crop (he does annuals on ~5% of his ground per year) that got a little too far or grass seed. Milk components were good and MUN's right around 12.

I hope to be buying some of his younger bulls this year to raise on grass myself. As of lately he hasn't really sold much of anything, all bull calves have been retained (intact) all heifers have been retained, the nurse cow groups have some cows that are simply "extra" in them feeding some very nice looking calves.

He was buying in some organic fertilizer to help boost soil mineral levels, and bought in a fair amount of poor quality hay for bedding, but that was about it. I have a similar soil type to him, (sand) so that is understandable, but I am not "officially" organic, so I keep bring in the neighbor's manure to boost fertility instead.

Currently in the process of setting up a small, single-8 flatbarn parlor. No plans to expand, it sounded like the current stallwork was shot, so this was a good time to transition.

Focus was definitely on soil health and then animal health. Production was not a concern, but if needed he could have easily moved 6-10 cows out of the nurse cow group, weaned some 4-6 month old calves, and put more milk in the tank tomorrow. Fat, protein, and MUN's were closely monitored to assess how the pasture management was affecting the cows. The entire pace of the time I was visiting was very relaxed, for all involved.

Sounds like what I figured, I have read some articles by him I believe. Thanks for the detailed description. Isn't he somewhere around 60 head? Did he say what his target MUNs are? 12 sounds dead on to me. A flat 8.... to each their own!

Cows250 are you looking into milking cows as well?

 

[cows250]

Sounds like what I figured, I have read some articles by him I believe. Thanks for the detailed description. Isn't he somewhere around 60 head? Did he say what his target MUNs are? 12 sounds dead on to me. A flat 8.... to each their own!

Cows250 are you looking into milking cows as well?

He milks around 60 yes, that was why I was surprised by the sheer number of animals on that 240 acre farm, with all the extra bulls, nurse cows, and heifers happily grazing away. He had no interest in milking any more cows, so just keeps retaining stock to have enough grazing mouths.

His parlor should be nice, but....not what I would build. I plan on putting in a swing-16 for myself when I get to that point.

Currently, I only own 13 acres, which seemed fine when I planned on buying all my feed and focusing on high production, like most farms I have worked at. However, not wanting to mow 13 acres (like the previous owner) I asked the neighbor if he would lend me his heifers to graze the pasture. Fast forward 3 summers and I have re-fenced my own land to have the most pasture area possible and will be grazing another 40 acres (20 grazable) of DNR land just north of me to maintain it as grassland. I like grazing and time will tell how everything ends up. I have seen good farms and healthy cows making from 8,000 to 31,0000 pounds....they all rely on good management to make things work. But, I'm cheap, and the infrastructure, feed, labor, and med costs to make 8K is far less than 30K.

His MUN goal was ~12. He said it does tend to get a little higher in the fall as forage growth slows down and is more lush.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

He milks around 60 yes, that was why I was surprised by the sheer number of animals on that 240 acre farm, with all the extra bulls, nurse cows, and heifers happily grazing away. He had no interest in milking any more cows, so just keeps retaining stock to have enough grazing mouths.

His parlor should be nice, but....not what I would build. I plan on putting in a swing-16 for myself when I get to that point.

Currently, I only own 13 acres, which seemed fine when I planned on buying all my feed and focusing on high production, like most farms I have worked at. However, not wanting to mow 13 acres (like the previous owner) I asked the neighbor if he would lend me his heifers to graze the pasture. Fast forward 3 summers and I have re-fenced my own land to have the most pasture area possible and will be grazing another 40 acres (20 grazable) of DNR land just north of me to maintain it as grassland. I like grazing and time will tell how everything ends up. I have seen good farms and healthy cows making from 8,000 to 31,0000 pounds....they all rely on good management to make things work. But, I'm cheap, and the infrastructure, feed, labor, and med costs to make 8K is far less than 30K.

His MUN goal was ~12. He said it does tend to get a little higher in the fall as forage growth slows down and is more lush.

A credit to him for that stocking rate. I recall him saying that area is fairly poor soils, and as you mentioned sandy, so drought prone.

Isn't anything better than a tie stall though? I've never even seen one and my back and knees start hurting at the mention of one.

Tend to follow the same thinking here on MUN levels here. Keeping it under 15 just seems to equate to a better functioning animal.

 

[cows250]

When he bought the farm it was in foreclosure.... We are surrounded by pivots in this area. His place is quite hilly in places, but mine is flat as a pancake; my water at least holds still for it to soak in. Either way, if we can't catch and hold as much water as possible, life is going to suck. Groundwater for me is only 25' down, so it is at least feasible that I might get roots able to tap into that if my pasture is healthy enough.

There are quite a few very flat fields around that look like washed sand after any rain. I would imagine that organic matter is headed towards 1% for those field, and the pivots run at least once a week. Winters are also long up here. We can expect frosts up until June 1st, and they can be expected again after Sept. 10th. That doesn't leave a lot of time to grow huge yields of crops, but frozen forage stockpiles well (except for clover).

I have milked in quite a few tiestalls through the years. It is not so bad for 40ish cows. 60 is the most that I would want to do. Some crazy people milk 120-300 cows in a tiestall. Though, I will say that some parlors are just miserable to work in.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

This guy here is 100% Forage. He is not certified but easily could be, just chooses not to cause he could care less. I really like his business model and would pursue something similar if I return home. I met him about five years ago. Cleanest, tidiest, most organized farm I have ever been on.

What concerns me is that he only expects 4000 lbs and milks about 6 months. That is on OAD though.


http://www.jakofarm.com/

 

[cows250]

That 4,000 pounds doesn't really concern me, as I am sure his calves are sucking down an almost equal amount. Nurse cows raising 2-3 calves each, or milk everyone and leave the calves on....amounts to the same thing in the end.

No idea of his prices, but I would imagine it is somewhere between 60-90/cwt, leaving plenty of room for a profit margin, even at 4,000 pounds.

If you can direct market successfully, being certified "anything" is a big waste of time and money. A sticker doesn't make anything healthier or tastier, and really limits your management options. Example: I am surrounded by crop farmers, that have green beans as part of the rotation. Most plant cover crops after the green beans. Being organic means those covers can't be grazed, even though it would be beneficial for all involved. Same with fertilization, being organic means that fertilizer is trucked in from who knows where...non-organic, I can just spread the neighbor's manure. On a nationally marketed scale, I understand the need for very specific rules so customers have some idea what is happening, but locally a customer can look around and decide if what the farmer is doing makes sense and buy or not based on what they see.

 

[newholland]

@cows250 you raise some very good points.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

That 4,000 pounds doesn't really concern me, as I am sure his calves are sucking down an almost equal amount. Nurse cows raising 2-3 calves each, or milk everyone and leave the calves on....amounts to the same thing in the end.

No idea of his prices, but I would imagine it is somewhere between 60-90/cwt, leaving plenty of room for a profit margin, even at 4,000 pounds.

If you can direct market successfully, being certified "anything" is a big waste of time and money. A sticker doesn't make anything healthier or tastier, and really limits your management options. Example: I am surrounded by crop farmers, that have green beans as part of the rotation. Most plant cover crops after the green beans. Being organic means those covers can't be grazed, even though it would be beneficial for all involved. Same with fertilization, being organic means that fertilizer is trucked in from who knows where...non-organic, I can just spread the neighbor's manure. On a nationally marketed scale, I understand the need for very specific rules so customers have some idea what is happening, but locally a customer can look around and decide if what the farmer is doing makes sense and buy or not based on what they see.

Yeah good points and I don't disagree with anything you said. My point with the amount produced is that if we kept the cow numbers the same here and got that production, it wouldn't cover the fixed costs.

The last time I talked to him I think he was at 80-90 cwt for his fluid milk. Plus they make an array of processed products. He has handed the running of the farm over to his son and daughter in law. They are very ingenious people. He even figured out a way to sell his colostrum to people.

No pasteurizer on the place and no license for anything. I think they did get in a bit of trouble for that last year though. Sells most everything through the on farm store, on the honor system.

 

[cows250]

Slightly off topic, but I keep comparing this discussion with the recent Hoard's article stating that in 50 years average milk production per cow will be 57,000 pounds per year. Having worked on high production dairies for years, 57K seems a little high, but a good goal. Having grazed my own stock, I wonder why anyone would want to go through all the bother of caring for such "super cows". I definitely see consumers moving toward even more grass based animal products regardless of how much they cost in relation to similar "conventional" products.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

This guy thought the same thing I reckon. http://www.progressivedairy.com/top...-a-dairy-the-management-has-to-be-grass-first

Odd for a Dutchman in this country