Mycorrhizal Association and Wheat Varieties

[The_Swede]

Or perhaps not in terms of potential for grass-weed suppression (interestingly including AMG).

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...12.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHKdPXOXkNFguEtWnx0XXfDLUimEw

 

[mikep]

Because AMF increases the rooting area of a plant enormously then the plant can get better availability of water in a stressed situation. Plants can also signal to each other through AMF to warn each other about imminent disease pressure so that their natural resistance can start to kick in.
I've seen some dramatic yield increases in certain ( not all ) situations in the trial work I have done. Maybe we need to think about using AMF as an insurance policy.

Yield increases over what and in what circumstances. If the MF won't play with soluble P then now can they be used.
I can't see where large increases would come from in the light of what you said as increased root mass does not automatically relate to yield.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Yield increases over what and in what circumstances. If the MF won't play with soluble P then now can they be used.
I can't see where large increases would come from in the light of what you said as increased root mass does not automatically relate to yield.

I've done some trials for a third party, the data as far as I'm concerned belongs to them and therefore I'm not about to announce all the details on the internet. However I'm sure that they'll be ok with me saying that in one situation the yield increase was 30/40 % ( if my memory serves me right without looking it up ) between the one part of the field that had the AMF and the other that didn't. The yield increase was to the line, no doubt about it and very convincing from the combine seat.

 

[Clive]

I've done some trials for a third party, the data as far as I'm concerned belongs to them and therefore I'm not about to announce all the details on the internet. However I'm sure that they'll be ok with me saying that in one situation the yield increase was 30/40 % ( if my memory serves me right without looking it up ) between the one part of the field that had the AMF and the other that didn't. The yield increase was to the line, no doubt about it and very convincing from the combine seat.

I have little doubt it works trouble is the benefit over cost ? inoculation is not cheap so are we better to grow AMF through cover crops etc

 

[Simon Chiles]

I have little doubt it works trouble is the benefit over cost ? inoculation is not cheap so are we better to grow AMF through cover crops etc

I wouldn't know what it cost, I didn't pay for any of it in exchange for doing the trials. As far as I understand you can build it in your soils for nothing but you can also easily destroy it. Before doing the trials we tested my soil for AMF expecting to find a reasonable amount, 15 years of dd or very shallow cultivations, no single brassica crop an wide rotations etc, and yet we found none so I must have been doing something to kill it, fungicide sprays, seed treatments for example. I still think we need to do much more research to get the best out of it, from my very limited experience so far I've no doubt in my mind that it could be a useful tool ( even if only as an insurance ) and as you say can be increased or maintained for nothing. However it might be useful to kick start the system, maybe introducing it after rape for example.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Simon, were they trials where AMF was added, or just measured as part of the monitoring ?

Sorry didn't see your post, the TFF App has an annoying habit of missing some posts out.
Yes, added AMF in varying rates on different crops.

 

[mikep]

I've done some trials for a third party, the data as far as I'm concerned belongs to them and therefore I'm not about to announce all the details on the internet. However I'm sure that they'll be ok with me saying that in one situation the yield increase was 30/40 % ( if my memory serves me right without looking it up ) between the one part of the field that had the AMF and the other that didn't. The yield increase was to the line, no doubt about it and very convincing from the combine seat.

Unfortunately having made the claim initially you have already put it into the public domain so the facts need addressing.

If as you claim you get a 30-40% increase (a hugely unscientific amount for one result) in yield it needs to be stated what the control was which is not confidential.
You say that the benefits of the MF are better access to water and an ability to handle disease stress better along with the already documented ability to scavenge for nutrients especially P.
This leads me to the conclusion unless you can say otherwise that the control was an unfertilised, drought stressed and non fungicide treated crop. If this is the cases a yield increase from say a low base of about 1ton to 1.35 ton acre would not rock my boat.
If however the control was what we would say was a normal crop of 3.5 ton and you got 4.75 then this is really relevant and will put your sponsors product in the best sellers list for sure.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Unfortunately having made the claim initially you have already put it into the public domain so the facts need addressing.

If as you claim you get a 30-40% increase (a hugely unscientific amount for one result) in yield it needs to be stated what the control was which is not confidential.
You say that the benefits of the MF are better access to water and an ability to handle disease stress better along with the already documented ability to scavenge for nutrients especially P.
This leads me to the conclusion unless you can say otherwise that the control was an unfertilised, drought stressed and non fungicide treated crop. If this is the cases a yield increase from say a low base of about 1ton to 1.35 ton acre would not rock my boat.
If however the control was what we would say was a normal crop of 3.5 ton and you got 4.75 then this is really relevant and will put your sponsors product in the best sellers list for sure.

I don't need to address any facts, as I've stated in previous posts the information as far as I'm concerned belong to someone else. You'll understand that the people I'm doing the trials for wouldn't want me to publish commercially sensitive information. I'm certain that they also wouldn't want to make any claim whatsoever about only a few trials either. As I also said earlier we ( they or anyone else ) need to do more research before we can come to any conclusion. All I'm saying is that in my own mind having seen the results in certain situations it did make a difference.

 

[N.Yorks.]

I don't need to address any facts, as I've stated in previous posts the information as far as I'm concerned belong to someone else. You'll understand that the people I'm doing the trials for wouldn't want me to publish commercially sensitive information. I'm certain that they also wouldn't want to make any claim whatsoever about only a few trials either. As I also said earlier we ( they or anyone else ) need to do more research before we can come to any conclusion. All I'm saying is that in my own mind having seen the results in certain situations it did make a difference.

Any more info now we are a year further on?

 

[Simon C]

I had forgotten about this thread so I will put up some mycorrhizae test results from last Autumn

3 Fields
Wheat after 3 years of lucerne 51.6% colonisation
Wheat after peas 36%
Triticale, after wheat 5.2%

Plant Works did the tests as usual and they got very exited when the first test came in because they didn't know it was possible for wheat to have this level of association, over 50% would normally be only expected from legumes and linseed. The obvious reason for this great result is that the lucerne had been left, undisturbed for three years, and the wheat drilled directly into it.

I actually find the second result just as encouraging, because I wasn't expecting it to be very good at all. The drainage on this field has got into a bit of a bad state and it was in desperate need of moling, and as I have explained before about my soil running together after peas, the wheat sat all winter in very poor conditions. This doesn't appear to have stopped the mycorrhizae getting going in the Spring and colonising 36% of the root surfaces.

Another possibility is that both these fields were grown from saving my own four way variety blend for a second year, in other words, it is the third generation of the original blend. I don't know at what rate pure varieties start crossing in the field, but it could be that I have created a whole lot of mongrel varieties which are much healthier than the originals, and have re-acquired their natural desire to associate with the fungi.

And the triticale, no idea what went wrong there, nothing obviously wrong with the field or the rotation so we will have to do some more testing on this crop to find out what is going on.

 

[Breakthru]

I love the doubters, never willing to stick their necks out and give something not backed up by a billion pound company, ten years of trials and a multi million pound advertising budget a try. Then complain when it costs £60/litre.
I have no connection to PW but admire very highly what they are doing and was impressed by a visit to their Kent premises.
My second hand comments about their products.
Rented field for carrots, fieldsman knocks on door and asks which of the two varieties in the field was theirs. Told that the whole field was theirs, all sown on same day, one half treated one half not. The difference was remarkable!
For the gardeners among you who grow Hostas, very very slug prone, and one of my best examples for Breakthru protection against said slugs.
You can split the mother plant to multiply them or you can take a cutting, cross the base of the stem with your knife, dip it in "Rootgrow from Plantworks" and get four saleable Hostas in half the time with splitting and with little or no damage to the mother plant.
Nuff said as far as I am concerned to be worth giving it a try.

 

[Kevtherev]

Hurrells seeds have done extensive work with MF in conjunction with the university of York
With grasses I must add

 

[mikep]

I had forgotten about this thread so I will put up some mycorrhizae test results from last Autumn

3 Fields
Wheat after 3 years of lucerne 51.6% colonisation
Wheat after peas 36%
Triticale, after wheat 5.2%

Plant Works did the tests as usual and they got very exited when the first test came in because they didn't know it was possible for wheat to have this level of association, over 50% would normally be only expected from legumes and linseed. The obvious reason for this great result is that the lucerne had been left, undisturbed for three years, and the wheat drilled directly into it.

I actually find the second result just as encouraging, because I wasn't expecting it to be very good at all. The drainage on this field has got into a bit of a bad state and it was in desperate need of moling, and as I have explained before about my soil running together after peas, the wheat sat all winter in very poor conditions. This doesn't appear to have stopped the mycorrhizae getting going in the Spring and colonising 36% of the root surfaces.

Another possibility is that both these fields were grown from saving my own four way variety blend for a second year, in other words, it is the third generation of the original blend. I don't know at what rate pure varieties start crossing in the field, but it could be that I have created a whole lot of mongrel varieties which are much healthier than the originals, and have re-acquired their natural desire to associate with the fungi.

And the triticale, no idea what went wrong there, nothing obviously wrong with the field or the rotation so we will have to do some more testing on this crop to find out what is going on.

Besides showing a hopefully healthier soil can you see any financial benefits from reduced inputs or increased outputs maybe better disease resistance?
Crosses my mind that in a high input situation the fungi might be thriving but in a parasitic not symbiotic manner I.e. not bringing a whole lot to the party.

 

[Simon C]

Besides showing a hopefully healthier soil can you see any financial benefits from reduced inputs or increased outputs maybe better disease resistance?
Crosses my mind that in a high input situation the fungi might be thriving but in a parasitic not symbiotic manner I.e. not bringing a whole lot to the party.

I would think that no P or K inputs for 15 years could be considered a financial benefit, it is the mycorrhizae that make that possible. The point is though, that MF don't just bring P, they are also supplying 60 or more other elements which are what makes true plant health and disease resistance, something artificial fertilisers cannot do.

 

[Simon C]

Besides showing a hopefully healthier soil can you see any financial benefits from reduced inputs or increased outputs maybe better disease resistance?
Crosses my mind that in a high input situation the fungi might be thriving but in a parasitic not symbiotic manner I.e. not bringing a whole lot to the party.

You won't get much mycorrhizal association in a high input system.

 

[mikep]

I would think that no P or K inputs for 15 years could be considered a financial benefit, it is the mycorrhizae that make that possible. The point is though, that MF don't just bring P, they are also supplying 60 or more other elements which are what makes true plant health and disease resistance, something artificial fertilisers cannot do.

That's a worthwhile payday. I find a lot of people look for fungus not the money so as long as it's there that's it. It shouldn't really happen much at all in high input systems with semi dwarfs wheats so you've got a result. What do you think the triticale did for nutrients? Does it feed on already released nutrients of was the crop poorish.
I am coming to the conclusion that different soils will attract different symbiotic relationships as mine will never grow white strands you see pictured on here but you can never clean the roots there is always some soil stuck soil so I assume something is happening.

 

[Simon C]

That's a worthwhile payday. I find a lot of people look for fungus not the money so as long as it's there that's it. It shouldn't really happen much at all in high input systems with semi dwarfs wheats so you've got a result. What do you think the triticale did for nutrients? Does it feed on already released nutrients of was the crop poorish.
I am coming to the conclusion that different soils will attract different symbiotic relationships as mine will never grow white strands you see pictured on here but you can never clean the roots there is always some soil stuck soil so I assume something is happening.

To be honest, I have had two harvests of triticale and both yielded pretty pathetically compared to wheat and this year's spring crop is already doomed to being poor because I couldn't get the disc drilled slots closed and the dry has meant I now have a far too low plant population. I do like it as a crop, one because of it's excellent black grass suppression, and secondly because it doesn't need much in the way of fungicides. Listening to Dr. Christine Jones on Tuesday at the Nuffield Soil Conference at Overbury, she said fungicides are having a devastating effect on soil fungi and that we should do everything possible to give them up! The lack of mycorrhizal association could mean that triticale is not suited to my biologically base system though, and needs spoon feeding like modern wheat varieties.

 

[Simon Chiles]

And the triticale, no idea what went wrong there, nothing obviously wrong with the field or the rotation so we will have to do some more testing on this crop to find out what is going on.

I may be wrong but I think that plants have a symbiotic relationship with AMF when they need it, i.e. lack of nutrients or water. The fact that a deep rooting plant like triticale in your highly biological active soil that hasn't been cultivated for years hasn't associated with AMF doesn't really surprise me.
The best result I've had with AMF was with triticale in a field that before we dd'ed it rarely grew a good crop of anything. My neighbour always says to me that if anyone had seen the crops on the field before dd and since it would be the field that sold you the system.
This is where I think people selling AMF have a problem, the guys who really need it are the ones who are destroying their soils through excess cultivation but they aren't listening or interested. It's probably best targeted at new dd'ers who need to get their soils into shape fast.
I'm doing another trial of AMF this year in some of my neighbours spring barley, some straight AMF and some with AMF and N fixing bacteria. Lack of rain so far may produce some interesting results. This is what the field looks like so far, it's had about 5 mm of rain on it since planting and none of that was in one go.

 

[N.Yorks.]

I may be wrong but I think that plants have a symbiotic relationship with AMF when they need it, i.e. lack of nutrients or water. The fact that a deep rooting plant like triticale in your highly biological active soil that hasn't been cultivated for years hasn't associated with AMF doesn't really surprise me.
The best result I've had with AMF was with triticale in a field that before we dd'ed it rarely grew a good crop of anything. My neighbour always says to me that if anyone had seen the crops on the field before dd and since it would be the field that sold you the system.
This is where I think people selling AMF have a problem, the guys who really need it are the ones who are destroying their soils through excess cultivation but they aren't listening or interested. It's probably best targeted at new dd'ers who need to get their soils into shape fast.
I'm doing another trial of AMF this year in some of my neighbours spring barley, some straight AMF and some with AMF and N fixing bacteria. Lack of rain so far may produce some interesting results. This is what the field looks like so far, it's had about 5 mm of rain on it since planting and none of that was in one go.View attachment 516472

Are you using a particular type of AMF that is picked for it's known association with certain crops?
How are you introducing the AMF to the soil and the plant?

Cheers.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Are you using a particular type of AMF that is picked for it's known association with certain crops?
How are you introducing the AMF to the soil and the plant?

Cheers.

I'm just doing trials for manufacturers of AMF. It's carried in the pumice it was grown in. Got a Stocks Air Force Rotometer on the back of the drill that blows the AMF into the opposite side of the venturi from the seed so that seed and AMF is planted together. My Dad designed a special gizmo that takes the pulsed voltage from the drill meter motor and switches the Rotometer on and off when the drill's metering.
PS I got him to knock up a few more if anyone wants one.