NFU mutual financial results / remuneration

[Filthyfarmer]

Got to give it to you, 42 messages since joining 24hrs ago. Some ax to grind !!

 

[Highland Mule]

This per the accounts at Company's House - who owns these shares? and therefore received that money?

Companies House has that information plainly available. The fact you’re suggesting there’s any secrecy about it makes it plain you’re stirring and makes me wonder if anything else you’ve posted can be trusted.

 

[Charlemagnex2]

Got to give it to you, 42 messages since joining 24hrs ago. Some ax to grind !!

Salute!

It is all sourced, so may your own mind up.

And there is a funny smell about -- so fells appropriate to support the members hold their management to account

And it is a civic duty to participate in responsible capitalism..... after all "NFU MUTAL believe in doing business the right way" as the CEO so often says...

 

[Charlemagnex2]

Companies House has that information plainly available. The fact you’re suggesting there’s any secrecy about it makes it plain you’re stirring and makes me wonder if anything else you’ve posted can be trusted.

I made no allegation the information was hidden, darling.

 

[Highland Mule]

I made no allegation the information was hidden, darling.

You’ve made a very strong suggestion it was. And don’t “darling” me.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

In 2020, £45 million pounds paid was out to something/someone in dividend income from N.F.U. MUTUAL MANAGEMENT COMPANY LIMITED.

This per the accounts at Company's House - who owns these shares? and therefore received that money? Do the members own those shares via the Mutual?

Source: 13 Sep 2022 Full accounts made up to 31 December 2021 available from https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01655167/filing-history

I would guess , and it's only a guess that the £45m is the surplus for distribution to member/ policy holders. It is the nature of a mutual society after all.

That it's not explained to the membership is more a failure of communications than anything else, and should be easy to find out.

 

[Fruitloop]

Fells like the members of NFU Mutual need to switch out the business's auditors...

I fear that the changes to the articles of association probably make that practically impossible as an ordinary member. Getting 500 votes would be a tough call. I suspect that as an ordinary member, getting a cup of tea organised at the AGM might be a job - let alone a motion to switch out the auditors.

 

[Fruitloop]

I would guess , and it's only a guess that the £45m is the surplus for distribution to member/ policy holders. It is the nature of a mutual society after all.

That it's not explained to the membership is more a failure of communications than anything else, and should be easy to find out.

I thought that was what the Mutual Bonus was for? We take your money, we use it, pool the surplus then redistribute it to all members (not just the long term farming members either) as a means of "making friends".

 

[Highland Mule]

That it's not explained to the membership is more a failure of communications than anything else, and should be easy to find out.

It is explained. In big words in the accounts in at least two places, plus in other company filings too.

Simply, the management company is owned 100% by the main company, but is a very tax efficient way of running the overall enterprise. That’s common in larger outfits and shouldn’t raise as much as an eyebrow unless you’re someone who is stirring shyte.

From the accounts, as linked by said stirrer:

 

[LadyTwoFourEight]

I would guess , and it's only a guess that the £45m is the surplus for distribution to member/ policy holders. It is the nature of a mutual society after all.

That it's not explained to the membership is more a failure of communications than anything else, and should be easy to find out.

Let's hope they communicate this clearly because there is enough unsettling stuff not to have this as well.

 

[LadyTwoFourEight]

It is explained. In big words in the accounts in at least two places, plus in other company filings too.

Simply, the management company is owned 100% by the main company, but is a very tax efficient way of running the overall enterprise. That’s common in larger outfits and shouldn’t raise as much as an eyebrow unless you’re someone who is stirring shyte.

From the accounts, as linked by said stirrer:
View attachment 1110748

This at least is reassuring. But is it wholly OK to be advoiding tax anyway? The mutual already has a very peachy tax situation thanks to lobbying to avoid tax in the post war period.

 

[LadyTwoFourEight]

I thought that was what the Mutual Bonus was for? We take your money, we use it, pool the surplus then redistribute it to all members (not just the long term farming members either) as a means of "making friends".

There is quite enough eyebrow raising stuff going on to not inhabit this aspect if it is in order.

If.

 

[Highland Mule]

But is it wholly OK to be evading tax anyway?

They’re not evading tax. That’s illegal.

Do you have any ISAs?

 

[Charlemagnex2]

There is enough going on with billion pound losses, bullying of agents, mistreatment of vulnerable customers and recent fraud convictions for staff to leave the tax stuff alone as a distraction.

The high-level summary is: big losses, big premium jumps, shakey management, poor culture, imposibly challeging governance, and some big risks inbound in terms of misseling coming home to roost and a possibly huge breach of contract situation following the litigation.

 

[LadyTwoFourEight]

There is enough going on with billion pound losses, bullying of agents, mistreatment of vulnerable customers and recent fraud convictions for staff to leave the tax stuff alone as a distraction.

The high-level summary is: big losses, big premium jumps, shakey management, poor culture, imposibly challeging governance, and some big risks inbound in terms of misseling coming home to roost and a possibly huge breach of contract situation following the litigation.

Quite

 

[Highland Mule]

recent fraud convictions for staff

More suggestive hyperbole on your part. 2011 isn't recent in business terms, and the 2018 case was a serial fraudster working for a claims management company who defrauded three different insurance companies.

big premium jumps,

Still silence on any evidence of this. My NFUM policies have gone up by far less than inflation.


Stick to the facts and you might have a point to make, but all you're doing is discrediting yourself with this nonsense.

 

[Charlemagnex2]

Stick to the facts

Ok, Jim. Lets keep to the not hyperbolic.

It may be matter of factly stated that:

• A billion pound loss was reported.
• Misselling is established.
• There is very hefty live litigation.
• the Financial Reporting Council called in the accounts for concerns around under declarations shared by AGM members
• Other people in the thread report 60 per cent premium rises

These things are rotting in the open as facts.

Other things have been going wrong for a period (such as fraud which was convicted)

Some people want to explore what has been going wrong.

What is your problem with that?

 

[Highland Mule]

What is your problem with that?

My problem is I like facts and you've been very sparse on those. Everything in your claims I've looked at has been shown to be wrong and that's coloured my opinion of you.

I'm happy to keep using NFUM as my insurance supplier, and will continue to do so.

A belated welcome to the forum though - hopefully you will venture outside this thread and share your farming experiences across the whole range of topics we have here.

 

[Fruitloop]

More suggestive hyperbole on your part. 2011 isn't recent in business terms, and the 2018 case was a serial fraudster working for a claims management company who defrauded three different insurance companies.


Still silence on any evidence of this. My NFUM policies have gone up by far less than inflation.


Stick to the facts and you might have a point to make, but all you're doing is discrediting yourself with this nonsense.

That's a response I'd expect from an NFUM board member. If the NFUM had engaged properly with the complainants at the AGM as opposed to just slapping them aside like irritating children, I expect that this thread (and the wilder stuff in them) would never have got going.
If you are a board member, your discomfort is understandable, but you and your colleagues made the bed. The results speak very eloquently for themselves. Hardly a resounding affirmation of the board's past decisions, nor encouraging for those members among us who feel the effects in our businesses. You'd be unrealistic to expect a report like that to pass without comment somewhere. If last year was lumpy, I suspect this year's AGM will be yet more interesting.

 

[Highland Mule]

That's a response I'd expect from an NFUM board member. If the NFUM had engaged properly with the complainants at the AGM as opposed to just slapping them aside like irritating children, I expect that this thread (and the wilder stuff in them) would never have got going.
If you are a board member, your discomfort is understandable, but you and your colleagues made the bed. The results speak very eloquently for themselves. Hardly a resounding affirmation of the board's past decisions, nor encouraging for those members among us who feel the effects in our businesses. You'd be unrealistic to expect a report like that to pass without comment somewhere. If last year was lumpy, I suspect this year's AGM will be yet more interesting.

If you think I'm a board member, you've not been on this forum for long. That couldn't be further from the truth - I'm not even a SNFU member, sorry.