John 1594
Member
- Location
- Cambridgeshire
Someone suggested i spread recycled plasterboard on that bad field of ours near the bridge. Reckon it would take a few thousand tonnes before i see any benefit though
Not happy
- Thread starter warksfarmer
- Start date
Someone suggested i spread recycled plasterboard on that bad field of ours near the bridge. Reckon it would take a few thousand tonnes before i see any benefit though
- Location
- East Essexshire
50t/ac worked well for me. (Long before any of the silly rules came in, of course
).It's still heavy sticky clay, but works and drains far easier than it used to, there's a couple of days where it's workable as it dries out rather than a couple of hours
charlesbrown
New Member
- Location
- N Beds
So dd doesn't work for you (maybe).
You know your soil probably better than anyone else, but don't just denigrate dd willy nilly!
That tends to be one of the more irritating facets of this forum, and why I hesitate to get involved,
the fact is that dd will work better on some soils than others!
We are lucky enough to have self structuring Hanslope series chalky boulder clay and dd works very well here thankyou (although we have been known to plough for bg reasons occasionaly)
But, hey, why don't I just keep quiet and let the machinery manufacturers make their millions selling kit!
DD WILL WORK FOR SOME AND THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO MAKE IT WORK, THE ANSWERS IN THE SOIL SILLY.
Tin hat on.
cb
You know your soil probably better than anyone else, but don't just denigrate dd willy nilly!
That tends to be one of the more irritating facets of this forum, and why I hesitate to get involved,
the fact is that dd will work better on some soils than others!
We are lucky enough to have self structuring Hanslope series chalky boulder clay and dd works very well here thankyou (although we have been known to plough for bg reasons occasionaly)
But, hey, why don't I just keep quiet and let the machinery manufacturers make their millions selling kit!
DD WILL WORK FOR SOME AND THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO MAKE IT WORK, THE ANSWERS IN THE SOIL SILLY.
Tin hat on.
cb
- Location
- Lincolnshire
There's a lot of mileage in getting the chemistry of the soil right in terms of improving structure. Liming was the traditional way and this is effective. I think a lot of clay soils aren't adequately limed, as they are usually naturally alkaline but can still be short of calcium. Ours are rich in aluminium hydroxides which raises pH, even though calcium can be low. I also wonder if adding some kind of physical conditioner such as vermiculite type substance, gravel or slag would achieve faster improvement in structure than organic matter which is constantly decaying and needs replenishment. But this a different subject almost in to the realms of hydroponics and vast quantities would be needed to make a difference. We have ploughed straw in for thirty years and the effect is insignificant, despite warnings back in those days from some professor that we would overload the soil with organic matter!!
I do get the point of zero till and do my best to make it work. I am still looking for solutions but at the end of the day I can't afford too many big bald patches in the crops or too much clatting around to achieve a result. The plough and power Harrow system is simple, most resilient and foolproof in my experience though maybe not ideal. It falls down for us on the sand with the possibility of wind erosion so the sand is no tilled if possible. Horses for courses.
I do get the point of zero till and do my best to make it work. I am still looking for solutions but at the end of the day I can't afford too many big bald patches in the crops or too much clatting around to achieve a result. The plough and power Harrow system is simple, most resilient and foolproof in my experience though maybe not ideal. It falls down for us on the sand with the possibility of wind erosion so the sand is no tilled if possible. Horses for courses.
Hilly
Member
- Location
- Scottish Borders.
Plough, dont power harrow, muck spread keep ph good, not long till you have massively improved soil its simple.
John 1594
Member
- Location
- Cambridgeshire
50t/ac worked well for me. (Long before any of the silly rules came in, of course
It's still heavy sticky clay, but works and drains far easier than it used to, there's a couple of days where it's workable as it dries out rather than a couple of hours
50t an acre to sort this out?
i was thinking more 500 tonne to "cure" this stuff?
- Location
- East Essexshire
You've got a head start there over what I was dealing with, I can see flecks of topsoil there!
I'm not saying it's a complete cure, February drilled wheat into good conditions was killed off in the wet in June, but it drilled well in Feb, and pulls up OK with tines now.
It would still look a lot like yours if I tried ploughing it wet, but I wouldn't be able to do it with tyres or rubber tracks, it would have to be steel.
SilliamWhale
Member
Yeah but if the muck comes from straw which comes from farms who aren't putting muck on you can see why there is a need for a system that helps build better soils on those farms? Yes all mixed farms would be great but its not happening at the moment for various reasons.
Hilly
Member
- Location
- Scottish Borders.
Buy chicken sh!t.
Philip Hedeng
Member
- Location
- Halmstad, Sweden
Hi @warksfarmer ,
Now I might have missed something, but it sounds like your problems are in certain places in your fields. Does soil type decide if a part of a field is good or bad, or is it traffic or something else? I'm just now changing to a no-till direct drill system and in OSR for example I can see how the plants struggle to root through clay that has not been loosened. But that's shallow compaction pans, not deep compaction like you speak of.
Could it have more to do with your rotation, as someone said early on? Winter crops only one in four years does not produce a lot of deep rooting plants. Instead you have a lot of cash and cover crops that only live for half a season each which perhaps don't have time to work through the compacted layers deep down. Since it takes more energy for the roots to break through it probably takes more time as well.
Now I might have missed something, but it sounds like your problems are in certain places in your fields. Does soil type decide if a part of a field is good or bad, or is it traffic or something else? I'm just now changing to a no-till direct drill system and in OSR for example I can see how the plants struggle to root through clay that has not been loosened. But that's shallow compaction pans, not deep compaction like you speak of.
Could it have more to do with your rotation, as someone said early on? Winter crops only one in four years does not produce a lot of deep rooting plants. Instead you have a lot of cash and cover crops that only live for half a season each which perhaps don't have time to work through the compacted layers deep down. Since it takes more energy for the roots to break through it probably takes more time as well.
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
We all know our own farms and soils best.
There is no absolute right way of doing something - there are good ways and not so good ways.
We each have TWO eyes, TWO ears (We won't mention the two hands we type with!!) and ONE mouth.
Perhaps they should be used in that exact proportion.
My suggestion is that we stick to what we know works best for each of us, Whilst we listen and look at how others solve their problems. Take on board what we hear from others and try to pick some constructive changes to our individual systems to improve them.
Doing the same thing over a over again, expecting things to improve, is never going to happen, is it?
Every day is a learning day and that includes mistakes as well as improvements.
There is no absolute right way of doing something - there are good ways and not so good ways.
We each have TWO eyes, TWO ears (We won't mention the two hands we type with!!) and ONE mouth.
Perhaps they should be used in that exact proportion.
My suggestion is that we stick to what we know works best for each of us, Whilst we listen and look at how others solve their problems. Take on board what we hear from others and try to pick some constructive changes to our individual systems to improve them.
Doing the same thing over a over again, expecting things to improve, is never going to happen, is it?
Every day is a learning day and that includes mistakes as well as improvements.
mikep
Member
- Location
- Arse end of Surrey, UK
I would like to know what drills the disappointed dd'ers used as a tine drill seems little different from min till in reality.
Maybe the problem is wrong drill for the job but really can't see how dd leads to compaction at depth.
Maybe the problem is wrong drill for the job but really can't see how dd leads to compaction at depth.
Is that called marling ? In Yorkshire anyway
Rainmaker
Member
- Location
- Canterbury,NZ
This would be one the more intellectual posts, good on you.
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Yes it's called marling here in Lincs as well. When my grandfather took the farm on there were quite a few ponds on it that had been created in the 1800's by digging out clay to spread on the sand. Marl pits.
Father resumed marling back in the 1970's using a scraper box but it had to be extremely dry to carry the 80 tonne unladen weight of the machine. It was also very expensive. It needed a driver more skilled than the standard motorway construction operators.
Not sure that this blue non calciferous subsoil clay is very good for plant life when brought to the surface and mixed in. It is highly alkaline, which was another reason for marling, (neutralising the acid sands) but I think it's alkaline because it contains a fair amount of aluminium hydroxide type material, not calcium. Aluminium isn't good for plants. We have one small sandy field that was heavily marled in the eighties when the gas pipeline people spread a lot of surplus blue clay on it. It's been pH 8.0 for the last 20 years and never grew a decent crop until last year when I gave it 2t/acre of mag lime. HIgh pH due to other metal hydroxides had masked deficiency in calcium and magnesium.
Moral of the story. Be very careful what you bring up from underneath. Sometimes it's best left there. And high pH doesn't necessarily mean you have enough calcium. Always best to do a broad spectrum soil analysis now and again.
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Heavy machinery leads to compaction at depth, no matter how wide the tracks or tyres IMO, especially if it's wet.
Shallow compaction can be caused by machinery but also lack of organic matter, over cultivation.
I'm stuck in a cycle of low organic matter needing cultivation to alleviate compaction. The cultivation then destroys more organic matter. I acknowledge this, but other than grassing it down for twenty years then never ploughing it, I can't see a way out of it. Not to mention blackgrass, brome, cranesbill, what to do with the straw etc which all become more difficult with zero till or it least make it a more intransigent system than the plough.
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Gravity, water and traffic cause compaction.
Roots and worms are the only natural counter action.
We can do things with subsoilers and ploughs etc but they tend to get us into a vicious circle of shifting compaction to different levels, creating clods, destroying any natural structure that might be forming and destroying organic matter. They are a short, costly fix that needs repeating year after year.
We still aren't there yet with the machinery and techniques for zero till. Well I'm not anyway. I thinks it's because I can't get enough roots and organic matter into the soil quickly enough with arable cropping to avoid the inevitable slumping that comes in year 3 in the heavy land. But just subsoiling alone on these areas creates a seedbed of concrete blocks, min till create cack on top of concrete so it ends up getting ploughed again.
Roots and worms are the only natural counter action.
We can do things with subsoilers and ploughs etc but they tend to get us into a vicious circle of shifting compaction to different levels, creating clods, destroying any natural structure that might be forming and destroying organic matter. They are a short, costly fix that needs repeating year after year.
We still aren't there yet with the machinery and techniques for zero till. Well I'm not anyway. I thinks it's because I can't get enough roots and organic matter into the soil quickly enough with arable cropping to avoid the inevitable slumping that comes in year 3 in the heavy land. But just subsoiling alone on these areas creates a seedbed of concrete blocks, min till create cack on top of concrete so it ends up getting ploughed again.
mikep
Member
- Location
- Arse end of Surrey, UK
This seems to show the ridiculous situation that is apparent nowadays of bigger is better. How stupid is a large direct drill? Surely no till is to benefit the soil so how do I do that? Get a huge drill that weighs a huge amount and a mega tractor to pull it. See the catch?
Seems some of the most 'switched on farmers'are tuned in to the wrong channel.
the single biggest physical benefit of a no till system is the lower need for power and therefore weight
I went from 25t tractors to 8t tractors and cover more acres in less hours
you are spot on, its a catch 22 situation with cultivation in that the power and weight you need to achieve it is what causes the problem your trying to solve in the first place
in the future I reckon we will look back at 8t tractors as stupidly heavy as well, the future is without doubt MUCH smaller, The Quadtrac is a dinosaur of a machine and will ultimately suffer the same fate as they did, extinction !
- Location
- Hertfordshire
I find this post bizarre. You don't become an expert simply through 50 years of experience. Instead, you educate yourself, by drawing on hundreds and hundreds of years of combined experience from all others who've gone before and who have studied the topic. You analyse what they've done, what does and doesn't work, and then you formulate a theory and test this. Sometimes you're right, sometimes your wrong. You share your findings and the next generation build on your knowledge as well.
Would a person, starting from scratch, be able to split an atom or understand quantum physics? No, they are simply building on the foundation work done by those who've gone before them.
I don't disagree that our knowledge of soils is shallow (soil pun intended) and that we've barely scratched the surface when it comes to understanding (second pun, also intentional
) but there are people out there who have a high level of understanding compared to virtually every farmer who has to master dozens of different disciplines during his or her working week