Organic Conversion

[Al R]

Sounds a good system.

Out of interest, why are you now able to carry more ewes/ac?

The nutrients in the land “slumped” the leys hadn’t very little clover and it wasn’t very heavily fertilised and high spud rotation (1-4 spuds) the first year we converted there was little difference, the second year we had to drop a bit, the 3rd we went a lot less, by not putting artificial nitrogen down the clovers were able to develop etc, the undersown spring oats carries a certain amount of clover seeds in it as it’s just there, this then gets fed to the ewes over the winter and they poo out the clover seeds across the PP and other fields etc..

With such high amounts of clover in the fields and having milder winters we are able to carry a lot more ewes than before, this year we could have had double the numbers and still would’ve been enough.

Organic doesn’t suit all farms but it does suit our main holding, we only have neighbours on 1/3 of our border and there is only an island 1/2 a mile west of us to spread its thistle seeds onto us!!!!

Btw, if it was up to me I would spend 365 days a year on a sprayer like I do for a friend in the summer anyway.

 

[organicguy]

The premium for organic cereals appears to be good, probably with good reason, but is there much of a premium on organic beef? There certainly isn’t much for lamb (which is often very low input & near orgasmic anyway), with a lot of less evangelical organic sheep farmers just selling them as conventional.

Do you think the organic premium on cereals will make up for the lower yields & quality? How will you making milling premiums organically, or are the goalposts moved for organic wheat?
I know you’re at an advantage to a lot of organic converters, as you already run a mixed farm, but genuine questions.

When we started conversion Nix showed the required premium for organic to match conventional was only £12 /tonne.
Organic milling wheat is accepted at lower protein than conventional as the protein is longer chain so is more effective at raising the loaf. Lamb premiums minimal, beef R4L £4.30 at present, varies from 30% premium down to very little!

 

[Shropshire Farmer]

When we started conversion Nix showed the required premium for organic to match conventional was only £12 /tonne.
Organic milling wheat is accepted at lower protein than conventional as the protein is longer chain so is more effective at raising the loaf. Lamb premiums minimal, beef R4L £4.30 at present, varies from 30% premium down to very little!

What would you say the premium for cereals needs to be now ?

 

[neilo]

The nutrients in the land “slumped” the leys hadn’t very little clover and it wasn’t very heavily fertilised and high spud rotation (1-4 spuds) the first year we converted there was little difference, the second year we had to drop a bit, the 3rd we went a lot less, by not putting artificial nitrogen down the clovers were able to develop etc, the undersown spring oats carries a certain amount of clover seeds in it as it’s just there, this then gets fed to the ewes over the winter and they poo out the clover seeds across the PP and other fields etc..

With such high amounts of clover in the fields and having milder winters we are able to carry a lot more ewes than before, this year we could have had double the numbers and still would’ve been enough.

Organic doesn’t suit all farms but it does suit our main holding, we only have neighbours on 1/3 of our border and there is only an island 1/2 a mile west of us to spread its thistle seeds onto us!!!!

Btw, if it was up to me I would spend 365 days a year on a sprayer like I do for a friend in the summer anyway.

With a bit more planning you could presumably have clover established already, prior to conversion, like a lot of conventional pastoral farmers do anyway? There would have been less of a hit to production/stocking rates then perhaps?

 

[Shropshire Farmer]

With a bit more planning you could presumably have clover established already, prior to conversion, like a lot of conventional pastoral farmers do anyway? There would have been less of a hit to production/stocking rates then perhaps?

You could which is partly what the conversion payments are for. But if no conversion payments. You need to build a rotation that still produces a reasonable cash crop in the first couple of years. Beans look a good option, Spring cereals like oats another option.

 

[Al R]

With a bit more planning you could presumably have clover established already, prior to conversion, like a lot of conventional pastoral farmers do anyway? There would have been less of a hit to production/stocking rates then perhaps?

Yes ideally but The knowledge of clover wasn’t as recognised then as it is now..

What we mainly find is that we don’t get burn off in late spring early summer because our root systems are so good where as conventional Farmers putting fertiliser on in huge amounts are relying purely on the fertiliser.


To @Shropshire Farmer were getting £240/t ex farm (picked up by a regular) at 18%MC for the barley and oats. We could ask for more but they take it every year, don’t quibble about moisture or quality if it isn’t brilliant and everyone’s happy! We are often yielding very similar to local farmers who are spraying and fertilising their crops?? Yet we combine 2 weeks sooner because the cereals have either got riddled with disease by the end (grain quality always looks good though!) plus it goes into siness earlier because it’s ran out of nutrients from below.

Lamb we find £3-8/head difference between organic and conventional but the organic price holds up higher for 3 weeks longer in June/July so it’s closer to £8-10 then but £3 in the autumn when more organic lamb hits the market.

 

[Shropshire Farmer]

That’s what I come back to. I’m not saying that inputs don’t work but their effectiveness is not pushing the yield plateau. Yield is driven by sunshine, moisture and soil health. The inputs put the icing on the cake. But is the margin there on normal soils ?

 

[SimonD]

Can anyone give me an idea on expected tonnage/ha for clover in conversion please? Light soil type.

 

[glasshouse]

Can anyone give me an idea on expected tonnage/ha for clover in conversion please? Light soil type.

Why?

 

[SimonD]

Why?

So I can understand the value of the crop.

 

[Sid]

Can anyone give me an idea on expected tonnage/ha for clover in conversion please? Light soil type.

How long is a piece of string?
Depends on inputs before, soil structure, previous crops,manure usage and type.

1st year off drugs = this is ok man
2nd year off drugs =wow this is soooo hard!
3rd year off drugs =well this ain't so bad after all......

 

[glasshouse]

So I can understand the value of the crop.

It has no cash value, it is building fertility.
Sell it at your peril

 

[SimonD]

It has no cash value, it is building fertility.
Sell it at your peril

I thought taking two cuts wouldn’t cause any real damage. I take it that’s an incorrect assumption?

 

[glasshouse]

I thought taking two cuts wouldn’t cause any real damage. I take it that’s an incorrect assumption?

Top it or graze it

 

[glasshouse]

I thought taking two cuts wouldn’t cause any real damage. I take it that’s an incorrect assumption?

Whats the cropping history?

 

[SimonD]

Mostly follows an arable rotation as follows: Wheat (2020), Wheat (2019) (FYM applied) , OSR (2018), Barley (2017) (FYM Applied).

 

[glasshouse]

Mostly follows an arable rotation as follows: Wheat (2020), Wheat (2019) (FYM applied) , OSR (2018), Barley (2017) (FYM Applied).

Definitely top

 

[suffolksmallholder]

From my perspective one of the bigger hurdles is convincing the current elderly owner to 'go organic'. One of my neighbours is allownig his son in law to farm organically as he wants to take a back seat now he's 79. SIL will only get half the farm though or that was the decision last time I enquired. How anyone will be able to turn an organic profit on 500 arcres I wonder. Like working with one arm tied.....

SS

 

[glasshouse]

From my perspective one of the bigger hurdles is convincing the current elderly owner to 'go organic'. One of my neighbours is allownig his son in law to farm organically as he wants to take a back seat now he's 79. SIL will only get half the farm though or that was the decision last time I enquired. How anyone will be able to turn an organic profit on 500 arcres I wonder. Like working with one arm tied.....

SS

Should be perfectly possible