Overthinking and overstating Regenerative Agriculture

[Jackov Altraids]

The important thing is to be open minded to all options. The expertise is in recognising which option to take at any particular time although, as always, this will be mainly down to luck/ weather.
I hope that ELMS will be effective at a greater engagement in different systems but in reality I expect it will actually polarise between rewilding and intensive.
It would be interesting to debate 'improvements' over the decades. There have been many but only the 'air seat' actually seemed to benefit the farmer or their bank balance.
All the innovations I see at the moment whether mechanical, chemical or biological seem to have the sole aim of maintaining the profitability of its manufacturer with little/ no pay off for anyone else.

 

[ajd132]

The problem is as it has become more mainstream and accepted thinking many more jump on the band wagon and then naturally start looking for the commercial or personal angle

I do feel a lot of people are over complicating things now and doing a lot of stuff they "think" seems right with companion crops and bacteria potions etc without any real hard proof. The essences of KISS farming gets lost at that point if not very careful

Shunning all synthetic inputs and any cultivation ever is not the solution, I have always seen what I am trying to achieve here as a fusion of conventional latest technology with organic and good old fashioned knowledge and thinking thrown in and used in combination with a greater appreciation of soil health being key to environmental, productivity and financial security in the future

It would be extremely naive and misguided to think that just because the likes of BASF, Baye, Yara etc dare to make money they have nothing to offer us ! yet a bloke who knocked up a bit of bacteria stuff in a shed has a better solution ! ........ truth is ALL the tools available should be considered and used where and when appropriate

It's working for us but I do fear for the overall direction things are moving somedays

I think my n sensor from yara is the best thing I’ve bought this year

 

[Clive]

There's irony for you! Where does TFF fit into your definition of mindlessness? Twatter is good at filtering stuff that you might want to see from the mass of junk that people of all tastes post. It's also extremely successful, more so than TFF.

I think that depends very much how you define "success" size and as a business yes without doubt - but useful knowledge transfer within UK agriculture ? I would argue TFF is leagues ahead on that !

Twitter is 99.9% soundbite and farmer narcissism, you could argue we get that on TFF as well but is diluted by a tonne of really useful stuff as well ........ your all here reading this post anyway !

 

[ajd132]

There is a big drive of companies now selling ‘biologicals’. The cost is ridiculous and they are essentially shipping water about. Same as the biostimulant stuff. None of these companies have any proper data.
If you want to go down that route then brew it yourself, you can get the components and do it for 1/20th of the cost.
Cover crops are the same, insane costs of some of the mixes that are so complicated no one actually knows what each component does. Even simple mixes are really over priced.

 

[Goweresque]

The important thing is to be open minded to all options. The expertise is in recognising which option to take at any particular time although, as always, this will be mainly down to luck/ weather.
I hope that ELMS will be effective at a greater engagement in different systems but in reality I expect it will actually polarise between rewilding and intensive.
It would be interesting to debate 'improvements' over the decades. There have been many but only the 'air seat' actually seemed to benefit the farmer or their bank balance.
All the innovations I see at the moment whether mechanical, chemical or biological seem to have the sole aim of maintaining the profitability of its manufacturer with little/ no pay off for anyone else.

Thats because ALL productivity increases in agriculture benefit everyone apart from the farmer. Farmers would be no worse off financially if our biggest tractor was an MF135. And we milked Jerseys. Yes production would be through the floor, but the prices would compensate. All farmers do by increasing productivity is create a never ending hamster wheel life for themselves, having to run faster and faster to just stand still. If we double production from the same inputs, guess what, prices will fall by half and you'll have to farm twice as many acres to make the same profit. While the consumers, the farming input providers and machinery manufacturers all make out like bandits.

When will we learn?

 

[ajd132]

I think a lot of the regen agriculture types on twitter are just showing off. Basically, farming is so easy for them that they have decided to play it on 'hard mode' - all of the science that has made farming more productive and easy over the last one hundred years is all a capitalist con and the true, pure way of farming is growing heritage wheat with no sprays. Of course, nothing in farming is natural, otherwise we'd be eating berries.

The emperors new clothes analogy is quite good. There seems to be lots of expensive books that people buy, tweet a photo of the front cover, and then suddenly everyone is buying this book to make them enlightened about regenerative agriculture. I can't remember any of the books names off hand but I'll just create some: "The hell of the steel tine", "Roundup your dead", "The spray can folly", "Big farm, small brain"

Why don’t you read some of them, might learn something. I can recommend many ?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Why don’t you read some of them, might learn something. I can recommend many ?

Well I'm sorry but a lot of the John Kempf and Nicole Masters stuff is twaddle. Not all of it but enough to make me want to give a large amount of their claims a wide berth.

 

[ajd132]

Well I'm sorry but a lot of the John Kempf and Nicole Masters stuff is twaddle. Not all of it but enough to make me want to give a large amount of their claims a wide berth.

The best one I have read recently is don schriever from the soil up and agriculture in transition. That’s very sensible stuff, abit like the Gary zimmer. i like the John kemph book but some of it was too much and as you say, over complicating things.
Infact a lot of that is happening now. People making what is simple (look after soils, Don’t cultivate any more than necessary, balance nutrients, use urea, grow some cover crops if you know how to deal with them, the simple stuff) Into some ridiculous program that involves 14 way cover crops mixes,Micro nutrient programs that cost £100/ha, various mixtures of humic acids and soil innoculants, mycorrizal powder. Selling a dream so to speak.
As you and Clive has said, keep it simple.

 

[SilliamWhale]

The best one I have read recently is don schriever from the soil up and agriculture in transition. That’s very sensible stuff, abit like the Gary zimmer. i like the John kemph book but some of it was too much and as you say, over complicating things.
Infact a lot of that is happening now. People making what is simple (look after soils, Don’t cultivate any more than necessary, balance nutrients, use urea, grow some cover crops if you know how to deal with them, the simple stuff) Into some ridiculous program that involves 14 way cover crops mixes,Micro nutrient programs that cost £100/ha, various mixtures of humic acids and soil innoculants, mycorrizal powder. Selling a dream so to speak.
As you and Clive has said, keep it simple.

Not read Don Schriver. Gary Zimmer is pretty reasonable.

 

[ajd132]

Not read Don Schriver. Gary Zimmer is pretty reasonable.

He’s pretty reasonable, it’s definitely one of the most applicable ones I’ve found. Arden andersem I’m sure you have read appears to have gone completely off the wall recently talking about biophysics and the moon, there was a recent podcast with John kemph it was nonsense.
There does seem to be some coming out nowadays which say all the right things, and I agree generally with what is being said, but then not much in the way of reasonable answers, Nicole masters is abit like this.
As for Neil Kinsey and albrecht papers, it just doesn’t make any sense to me.

 

[SilliamWhale]

He’s pretty reasonable, it’s definitely one of the most applicable ones I’ve found. Arden andersem I’m sure you have read appears to have gone completely off the wall recently talking about biophysics and the moon, there was a recent podcast with John kemph it was nonsense.
There does seem to be some coming out nowadays which say all the right things, and I agree generally with what is being said, but then not much in the way of reasonable answers, Nicole masters is abit like this.
As for Neil Kinsey and albrecht papers, it just doesn’t make any sense to me.

Arden Anderson calls himself a doctor but he's an osteopathic doctor.

 

[DrWazzock]

I just go with what actually really works now, not what people try to persuade me could or might work.
Get the basics right like pH, compaction, p and K indices, drainage and timeliness , machinery maintenance. I find I don’t have time to faff around with anything else if I attend properly to these critically important basics.
I won’t grow rape till the flea beetle issue is sorted out. I am not drilling any combinable crop before Christmas either. Just more time for things to go wrong and spend more. I don’t need cover crops. I will direct drill or plough as conditions dictate.

 

[Clive]

worth remembering that writing h books and keynote speaking at big cinfr

Thats because ALL productivity increases in agriculture benefit everyone apart from the farmer. Farmers would be no worse off financially if our biggest tractor was an MF135. And we milked Jerseys. Yes production would be through the floor, but the prices would compensate. All farmers do by increasing productivity is create a never ending hamster wheel life for themselves, having to run faster and faster to just stand still. If we double production from the same inputs, guess what, prices will fall by half and you'll have to farm twice as many acres to make the same profit. While the consumers, the farming input providers and machinery manufacturers all make out like bandits.

When will we learn?

We won't while we are led by organisations that think GM editing etc is good for farmers and lobby for such things or that the solution to newt zero is to stock up a few solar panels !......... then again their membership is not just farmers ....... just saying !

Don't get me wrong, the technology in agriculture is amazing and exciting but none of it has made us as farmers better off .......... financially it was all downhill once we had synthetic N

 

[Banana Bar]

There is a big drive of companies now selling ‘biologicals’. The cost is ridiculous and they are essentially shipping water about. Same as the biostimulant stuff. None of these companies have any proper data.
If you want to go down that route then brew it yourself, you can get the components and do it for 1/20th of the cost.
Cover crops are the same, insane costs of some of the mixes that are so complicated no one actually knows what each component does. Even simple mixes are really over priced.

I have never understood how anyone can afford to buy pre mixed cover crop seed. Literally throwing money away.

 

[ajd132]

I have never understood how anyone can afford to buy pre mixed cover crop seed. Literally throwing money away.

I’ve done it in the past, but the pre mix stuff with fancy names is ridiculous. Black oats blah blah, vetches blah blah.
What’s wrong with normal oats and peas? Chuck in abit of more expensive phacelia, linseed off the floor.

 

[Banana Bar]

I’ve done it in the past, but the pre mix stuff with fancy names is ridiculous. Black oats blah blah, vetches blah blah.
What’s wrong with normal oats and peas? Chuck in abit of more expensive phacelia, linseed off the floor.

Last year, home grown oats, home grown peas, home grown linseed, bought in phacelia. Didn’t grow well because it was too dry at planting, cheap though thankfully.
A few hours researching who sells what, can and does save thousands. A few hours with a cement mixer or feeder wagon and happy days. Selling cover crop mixes is like stealing sweeties from 4 yr olds.

 

[ajd132]

Last year, home grown oats, home grown peas, home grown linseed, bought in phacelia. Didn’t grow well because it was too dry at planting, cheap though thankfully.
A few hours researching who sells what, can and does save thousands. A few hours with a cement mixer or feeder wagon and happy days. Selling cover crop mixes is like stealing sweeties from 4 yr olds.

We’ve mixed up 20+ tonnes of cover crop mix yesterday in the corner of the barn. I have black lung now though.

 

[Banana Bar]

We’ve mixed up 20+ tonnes of cover crop mix yesterday in the corner of the barn. I have black lung now though.

Marlboro lung

 

[Bury the Trash]

We’ve mixed up 20+ tonnes of cover crop mix yesterday in the corner of the barn. I have black lung now though.

You ought to watch that, else it might catch up with you when your older or even before

 

[Try to succeed]

We’ve mixed up 20+ tonnes of cover crop mix yesterday in the corner of the barn. I have black lung now though.

For my own benefit, how does this work with royalties? It’s something I’m doing going forward and want to be right.