Pasture-For-Life beef

[holwellcourtfarm]

I was thinking about this post while I was doing my cattle work this morning. In a way it typifies how we, as farmers, have been conditioned to think and act over the last sixty years. Someone mentions something that’s potentially very good for your crops and farm, and straight away we look to see if it’s available to buy.

Now, I accept it was done somewhat tongue in cheek by @Bury the Trash, (or at least I guess it was), but it does sum up our mentality: the solution lies in a tin.

The thing about regenerative agriculture is that, very often, the ‘tin’ is the last thing you need. Generally, the ‘tin’ (or the fertiliser bag or the expensive cattle cake) has unintended negative consequences, even if the short term benefits appear to be spectacularly positive.

Mycorrhizal fungae would be a perfect example of something that doesn’t need a ‘tin’. Leave your FYM in a heap for a year and it will start to develop humates and fulvic acid which, when applied to your ground, stimulate MF growth; add woodchip to your FYM and turn / compost it, then leave it for a year and the levels of humates and fulvic acid increase dramatically, all for “free”, and all using your own farm produce.

Someone much brighter than me said they used to wake up in the morning wondering what they had to kill that to be a good farmer: blackgrass, intestinal worms, ragwort, thistles, etc etc. It was a constant fight with nature.

Now they wake up wondering how they are going to work with, and make use of, nature to control the thistles, why had the blackgrass appeared and what had they done wrong to their soil to cause it to become a problem, etc.

The inputs industry are getting quite worried about the whole Regenerative Agriculture and farming with nature trend. They are all dusting off the tobacco industry playbook and pushing money into those methods purely to protect their future income streams.

- Rubbish the opposition
- Spread doubt about the science
- Commission "science" from tame academics to use in both items above
- Attempt to distort the new paradigm to fit their existing business model (so claiming to be already doing it)
- Look for a way to turn it into a profitable product to sell (hence the tin of fungi, the emerging offers of "comprehensive soil tests", applying GM to existing natural soil biological organisms so that they can be patented and sold etc)
- Offer training in the new technique but distorted to include the importance of using their products for it to work well
- If all else fails then lobby sponsored politicians hard to restrict it or prevent policy supporting it

Sadly the NBA seem to be adopting the same general approach.

How do we support beef producers against the ongoing public attacks while abiding opening up any divisions between different production methods for the attackers to exploit?

 

[Bury the Trash]

I was thinking about this post while I was doing my cattle work this morning. In a way it typifies how we, as farmers, have been conditioned to think and act over the last sixty years. Someone mentions something that’s potentially very good for your crops and farm, and straight away we look to see if it’s available to buy.

Now, I accept it was done somewhat tongue in cheek by @Bury the Trash, (or at least I guess it was), but it does sum up our mentality: the solution lies in a tin.

The thing about regenerative agriculture is that, very often, the ‘tin’ is the last thing you need. Generally, the ‘tin’ (or the fertiliser bag or the expensive cattle cake) has unintended negative consequences, even if the short term benefits appear to be spectacularly positive.

Mycorrhizal fungae would be a perfect example of something that doesn’t need a ‘tin’. Leave your FYM in a heap for a year and it will start to develop humates and fulvic acid which, when applied to your ground, stimulate MF growth; add woodchip to your FYM and turn / compost it, then leave it for a year and the levels of humates and fulvic acid increase dramatically, all for “free”, and all using your own farm produce.

Someone much brighter than me said they used to wake up in the morning wondering what they had to kill that day to be a good farmer: blackgrass, intestinal worms, ragwort, thistles, etc etc. It was a constant fight with nature.

Now they wake up wondering how they are going to work with, and make use of, nature to control the thistles, why had the blackgrass appeared and what had they done wrong to their soil to cause it to become a problem, and how could they correct it, etc

It has got me thinking actually ,at £21.67 per kilo i would be better off trying to bag it up and sell it ... lol.

 

[Agrivator]

I can accept that there might be more interesting things to think about (it’s all down to personal preferences, after all) but I would argue strongly that there is not an area of agriculture more important than mycorrhizal fungae.

It’s no surprise, and there’s no shame in the fact, that the majority of farmers don’t know anything about them. For example glomalin, one of the products of MF and an essential glue that holds our soils together, was only discovered in the 1990’s. It’s a relatively new science.

However, as I said, it is vitally important that we understand mycorrhizal fungae and do everything to ensure our soils are thriving in them. I think every agriculture student should be taught about them. I believe every farmer, if they don’t know about them, should go on a voyage of discovery. It’s fascinating and potentially very rewarding.

This is a sensible article worth reading.

Do Mycorrhizal Fungi Inoculants Work?

Mycorrhizal fungi play an important role in the garden, but you don't need to buy them. Find out more about the mycorrhizal fungi gardening myth.

www.gardenmyths.com

 

[The Ruminant]

This is a sensible article worth reading.

Do Mycorrhizal Fungi Inoculants Work?

Mycorrhizal fungi play an important role in the garden, but you don't need to buy them. Find out more about the mycorrhizal fungi gardening myth.

www.gardenmyths.com

Very good intro, thank you

 

[Treg]

Where's a good place to start?

Someone posted a video a while back with Australian professor talking about plants talking to each other , Brilliant video & a mind blower
Also someone posted recently about plants get 80% of their nutrients from the atmosphere a good post from a Kiwi but not @Kiwi Pete but I think KP knows him/ her??

 

[Bury the Trash]

I think the certification means that the animals have never been fed grain, rather than only grass. So hay, silage and brassicas are permitted. Perfectly possible with the correct genetics for the job.

@Cowgirl will know more.

im not sure Whatis the main issue is it th e ethics or the nutritional value?
i find growing decent field of Winter Oats actually better for the soil than brassicas.
a great and natural feed for sheep when strategically fed.
also its useful to have something dry to feed when all around is sodden. plus a bale of hay of course.
converslyive seen it along with other grains fed in Australia in a time of dry weather.


im not on the big input system mind you, and relatively low fert and sprays use has always been the way here.

 

[steveR]

Mycorrhizal fungae would be a perfect example of something that doesn’t need a ‘tin’. Leave your FYM in a heap for a year and it will start to develop humates and fulvic acid which, when applied to your ground, stimulate MF growth; add woodchip to your FYM and turn / compost it, then leave it for a year and the levels of humates and fulvic acid increase dramatically, all for “free”, and all using your own farm produce.

Nicely put!

Question, this might be the wrong place to ask it but there you go, I can't be perfect all the time!

I have long preferred to mature the FYM heaps, if at all possible, especially if going onto grassland. In the next 12 months, as part of a change in the farming here, herbal leys and 2yr B&BB mixes will be going in too. On the very light sand, I am keen to explore ways to improve the fertility and increase OM, as much as is possible.

I have tended to avoid wood chip (from horsey types) as if it is an N hog, taking ages to rot, same as the grass clippings waste from the local Council .(tried once ONLY!) Your comment started me wondering what blending some sludge cake with the woodchip horse muck and FYM heap would do...??

 

[Agrivator]

im not sure Whatis the main issue is it th e ethics or the nutritional value?
i find growing decent field of Winter Oats actually better for the soil than brassicas.
a great and natural feed for sheep when strategically fed.
also its useful to have something dry to feed when all around is sodden. plus a bale of hay of course.
converslyive seen it along with other grains fed in Australia in a time of dry weather.


im not on the big input system mind you, and relatively low fert and sprays use has always been the way here.

Well said. The folk who support these crackpot inflexible ideas are certainly not experienced dyed-in-the-wool stock men who have years of tradition behind them.

The folk who leap in are usually hobby farmers with little or no experience, but who are receptive to mad-cap suggestions, and who think they are going to revolutionise farming.

We all know that grass and grass products are usually the cheapest feeds, but that tactical use of concentrates as and when required can have a massive benefit in terms of productivity, carbon reduction and animal welfare.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Nicely put!

Question, this might be the wrong place to ask it but there you go, I can't be perfect all the time!

I have long preferred to mature the FYM heaps, if at all possible, especially if going onto grassland. In the next 12 months, as part of a change in the farming here, herbal leys and 2yr B&BB mixes will be going in too. On the very light sand, I am keen to explore ways to improve the fertility and increase OM, as much as is possible.

I have tended to avoid wood chip (from horsey types) as if it is an N hog, taking ages to rot, same as the grass clippings waste from the local Council .(tried once ONLY!) Your comment started me wondering what blending some sludge cake with the woodchip horse muck and FYM heap would do...??

Have you ever looked at Johnson-Su bioreactors? A very interesting idea. You could then use some of the activated compost to spread on your woodchip based FYM when you heap it to multiply the effect?

 

[The Ruminant]

i find growing decent field of Winter Oats actually better for the soil than brassicas.
a great and natural feed for sheep when strategically fed.

I visited a few organic farmers in Argentina who did this - they were mainly spring cropping (soya and maize) so planted oats or rye in the autumn, strip grazed it hard through the winter then put in their spring crop. Worked really well and topped up their fertility during the non-grass ley years

Nicely put!

Question, this might be the wrong place to ask it but there you go, I can't be perfect all the time!

I have long preferred to mature the FYM heaps, if at all possible, especially if going onto grassland. In the next 12 months, as part of a change in the farming here, herbal leys and 2yr B&BB mixes will be going in too. On the very light sand, I am keen to explore ways to improve the fertility and increase OM, as much as is possible.

I have tended to avoid wood chip (from horsey types) as if it is an N hog, taking ages to rot, same as the grass clippings waste from the local Council .(tried once ONLY!) Your comment started me wondering what blending some sludge cake with the woodchip horse muck and FYM heap would do...??

I don’t know about sludge added to a compost heap. It makes sense in theory, but there’s the issue that it has to be incorporated after spreading, which is tricky on grass fields!

I too avoid horsey woodchip like the plague, mainly because they all seem to use wormers like they’re going out of fashion which isn’t good for compost. Instead I use chip that the local tree surgeons / garden maintenance guys are desperate to get rid of - it sometimes has Leylandii, Laurel or conifer in it but it’s fine once it’s mixed and decomposed.

Well said. The folk who support these crackpot inflexible ideas are certainly not experienced dyed-in-the-wool stock men who have years of tradition behind them.

The folk who leap in are usually hobby farmers with little or no experience, but who are receptive to mad-cap suggestions, and who think they are going to revolutionise farming.

We all know that grass and grass products are usually the cheapest feeds, but that tactical use of concentrates as and when required can have a massive benefit in terms of productivity, carbon reduction and animal welfare.

I don’t know where you get your information from, but there are large numbers of “dyed in the wool stockmen (and women) who are members of the Pasture Fed Livestock Association. Why say stuff that isn’t true? What’s do you get from doing so?

These dyed in the wool stock people are also making it work. It’s a shame you’re so adamant that you have to do things one way and one way only.

I’m afraid you are also dead wrong when you say the judicious use of concentrates has a massive benefit in terms of “carbon reduction and animal welfare”. I have explained - I thought clearly - earlier in this thread as to why concentrates increase the carbon footprint of livestock.

It is also a fact that ruminants evolved over tens of thousands of years to eat a predominantly forage-based diet - any seed heads they came across would be tiny and have minuscule amounts of starch in them. It’s only recently we’ve started feeding starch. You will know - as a dyed in the wool stockman - that if you feed too much starch it will kill the animal. I’ve never yet killed an animal from feeding it too much grass, ergo which is better and which is worse?

 

[Bury the Trash]

I visited a few organic farmers in Argentina who did this - they were mainly spring cropping (soya and maize) so planted oats or rye in the autumn, strip grazed it hard through the winter then put in their spring crop. Worked really well and topped up their fertility during the non-grass ley years

i worked for an organic farmer once, he used to say you've got to be one or the other but i disagree.
but he was actually totally right from a what amount/ type of product you have to sell/marketing point of view. (see @jdkid s post above.)
I'm not organic.never intend to be either , and im not interested in the opposite end either ie high input albeit high output .

@Agrivator gets what i mean.

Any way what i meant was that i grow it for the dry grain. and the straw.
and for grazing over winter or any other time for that matter. brassicas will be a a way better bet for energy and protein even taking inputs into consideration, than grazing oats

having said that i have grazed oats in summer up to into ear/ combining stage before now.

 

[Cowgirl]

Well said. The folk who support these crackpot inflexible ideas are certainly not experienced dyed-in-the-wool stock men who have years of tradition behind them.

The folk who leap in are usually hobby farmers with little or no experience, but who are receptive to mad-cap suggestions, and who think they are going to revolutionise farming.

We all know that grass and grass products are usually the cheapest feeds, but that tactical use of concentrates as and when required can have a massive benefit in terms of productivity, carbon reduction and animal welfare.

You’re making the same comments as you did earlier in this thread and I’m not going to answer you again as @TheRuminant has already done it, but I’m wondering why you cannot accept that some people want to do things differently?

 

[steveR]

Have you ever looked at Johnson-Su bioreactors? A very interesting idea. You could then use some of the activated compost to spread on your woodchip based FYM when you heap it to multiply the effect?

No, but I have read this brief but informative article, https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-Jo...-to-a-normal-closed-rot-compost-stack?share=1

Very interesting concept and technique.

 

[steveR]

I don’t know about sludge added to a compost heap. It makes sense in theory, but there’s the issue that it has to be incorporated after spreading, which is tricky on grass fields!

I too avoid horsey woodchip like the plague, mainly because they all seem to use wormers like they’re going out of fashion which isn’t good for compost. Instead I use chip that the local tree surgeons / garden maintenance guys are desperate to get rid of - it sometimes has Leylandii, Laurel or conifer in it but it’s fine once it’s mixed and decomposed.

I would haver thought that after lurking in an FYM heap, and sludge cake will have broken down after 12 month.... However, mine was heading for arable land BUT, to was going to be DD!

Good point about wormers... not thought of that one I will admit! I wonder how long they take to degrade? I try not to use any wormers on cattle at grass these days, especially any 'mectins.

 

[Woolless]

You’re making the same comments as you did earlier in this thread and I’m not going to answer you again as @TheRuminant has already done it, but I’m wondering why you cannot accept that some people want to do things differently?

Yes, I can't see the point of joining a forum to swap ideas if you're convinced that what you're doing is 100% and cannot be improved

 

[steveR]

Have you ever looked at Johnson-Su bioreactors? A very interesting idea. You could then use some of the activated compost to spread on your woodchip based FYM when you heap it to multiply the effect?

Been trying to see any description of a field size bioreactors.... Have you any URL's for these at all please?

 

[Bury the Trash]

From what i've seen, most of the grazed areas of the hIghlands and moors are badly poached

thats a bit rude to say the least and ill informed to put it mildly.

if you're over here sometime how bout book up a trek with Phil and Mandy they are well respected commercial Beef and Sheep farmers on the edge of the moor and with common grazing rights.
bit touristy this vid. but a good advert ir.
He would show you what they do and the whys and wherefores as i know little about it and couldn't explain even if i did.

and note the view at 0.30 that's pretty much home for us , Gods Country.
but of course its way better to visit in person.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Been trying to see any description of a field size bioreactors.... Have you any URL's for these at all please?

I'll share some when I'm at the computer rather than the iPad but this explains quite well: https://thenaturalfarmer.org/article/making-fungal-compost/

They don't need to be big though, the application rates are small. That's one of the beauties of natural processes.

 

[Bury the Trash]

We all know that grass and grass products are usually the cheapest feeds, but that tactical use of concentrates as and when required can have a massive benefit in terms of productivity, carbon reduction and animal welfare.

Exactly flexibility ......
and yes, to imply in any way that 'deferred grass ' (as some posters.seem to be doing) is all that's needed for the winter without any back up or contingency is misleading to the unaware at least and down right irresponsible at worst and makes me wonder how long a view they actually have .

 

[steveR]

I'll share some when I'm at the computer rather than the iPad but this explains quite well: https://thenaturalfarmer.org/article/making-fungal-compost/

They don't need to be big though, the application rates are small. That's one of the beauties of natural processes.

Ideal use for old IBCs? They really are modest in size aren't they.