Pay farmers to cut pollution?

[DrWazzock]

I think in this country there has to be a realisation that if we aren’t to bankrupt ourselves then are going to have to compromise on river water quality and other envonmental measures. That doesn’t mean we should give up trying, far from it, but the continual persecution of businesses who can’t really afford to do much more and are already doing plenty will be incredibly damaging to the future economic prospects of this country/

 

[bluebell]

We are becoming a "third world country", in many ways?

 

[DrWazzock]

We are becoming a "third world country", in many ways?

Mostly by self destruction through regulation and litigation.

 

[som farmer]

The deference to archaeology boils my pee., The potential of thousands of acres wasted potential just in case Tony Robinson and Time Team might show up one day and find half a rusty bucket handle. We’ve got our priorities all wrong.

we did have them turn up twice !

but it wasn't 'fancy' enough for them, buggers.

l would bet if you went 'looking' for ancient remains, you would have a job to find many fields without 'something'.

we are now being shown, the Amazon rain forest has many recently discovered cities, some housing 30,000 people, in advanced settlements, Egypt, vastly more 'relics' than ever thought. All thanks to Ground penetrating radar.

if they try that in the uk, goodbye SFI, as l think all you are allowed, is low input grass, at SFA

 

[S.Jamieson]

Rubbish, here as ive said time and time again? Same in many parts of the UK, the infrustructure to cope with sewage, fresh water, electric, is now way way under capacity for the currant population and it still grows/builds thousands more new houses to discharge the sewage into this system? We have here a classic example. A mains sewage system, with manhole covers, that i remember as children been installed mid 1970s, it cuts through farmland and on my section runs ajacent to the river crouch, up to about 20 odd years ago, the manhole covers in my grazing fields never used to overflow out, but now, every time we have heavy rain the rainwater enters the system, comes up from 6 ft down and flows/pours out, and thus into the river? Common sense tells me two things, one it will only get worse and worse as more new homes join on to it, and two theres no real answer other than put another complete new system in at the cost of many millions?

Blame J Bazelgette.

 

[Werzle]

I think in this country there has to be a realisation that if we aren’t to bankrupt ourselves then are going to have to compromise on river water quality and other envonmental measures. That doesn’t mean we should give up trying, far from it, but the continual persecution of businesses who can’t really afford to do much more and are already doing plenty will be incredibly damaging to the future economic prospects of this country/

I think they are quite happy to bankrupt firms, they have already priced many a good uk business out of the international market with regulation/ red tape etc

 

[crashbox]

FWIW, my thoughts are that farms DO need to cut water pollution. If the water industry finally sort their act out then farming will rightly become the next target.

Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong in the legal sense:

Legally, each farmer needs to comply with the law. That's it.

If new laws are passed, e.g. reducing N limits, then bar changes and farmers have to adapt.

If a particular farmer can prevent general agricultural diffuse pollution, be it from their and/or other farms, e.g. by installing a nutrient stripping wetland in a vulnerable water catchment, then it is sensible to pay the farmer for that service.

If there is no mechanism for the market to pay, the government has to step in.

Commercial incentive is the fastest, and often most effective way to encourage alternative land use to benefit the environment.

 

[DrWazzock]

Yes, you are wrong in the legal sense:

Legally, each farmer needs to comply with the law. That's it.

If new laws are passed, e.g. reducing N limits, then bar changes and farmers have to adapt.

If a particular farmer can prevent general agricultural diffuse pollution, be it from their and/or other farms, e.g. by installing a nutrient stripping wetland in a vulnerable water catchment, then it is sensible to pay the farmer for that service.

If there is no mechanism for the market to pay, the government has to step in.

Commercial incentive is the fastest, and often most effective way to encourage alternative land use to benefit the environment.

Correct.
As long as farmers are operating within the law then they should be left alone not pilloried or gas lighted out of existence just because their activities don’t meet some folks idea of what is right and acceptable.
I’m fed up of trial by social media often instigated by minority pressure groups who make a lot of noise and seem to attract a lot of air time with woke and entitled BBC. We have these folk wanting to be able to swim safely in our rivers. They feel entitled. Well in my view river swimming is hardly a national priority, it’s hardly an essential. A shortage of eggs brought about by continued pressuring of poultry firms to make rivers clean enough for their tiny minority pastime would be a much more serious problem. Nobody seems to think of that. We just have minority pressure groups banging on selfishly that every other industry should desist and make way for their very middle class sport or hobby. Just about sums the country up.
I’ve even some sympathy for the water companies. The public see the capacity of such systems as infinite and when it comes down to it won’t do a thing to help the situation themselves. Have six kids. Chuck everything down the pan. Oh what the sewerage sysyem can’t cope? Too much sh!t Sherlock. This attitude prevails in our village. Everybody craftily taps their outflow into a roadside drain. They never desludge their septic tanks. The sh!t ends up in our watercourse. But they’ll all be reading the Guardian this weekend tut tutting about those dirty farmers and the CSF man will be wondering why the phosphate levels are so high. The hypocracy of it all.

 

[Huno]

Water bills have gone up and river cleanliness will improve in time. I notice lobster food is now in short supply along out coasts?

 

[bluebell]

DrWazzock your right, its also, the new people who have just moved into that "nice" house in the village, that are so apposed to any mention of new builds, "affordable" housing, for youngsters who were born in the village but now cant afford the prices? I cant? Its only the fact, that at great cost, trouble, made to jump through all sorts of hoops to prove the need and vaiablity, of my holding that i was reluctantly given permission to build an agricultural "workers" dwelling on my holding? (in a village my father lived in during ww2 as a young boy, in the village that has his older brothers name on the war memorial, ( he was killed in italy 2 weeks before the war ended), in a village that ive and my brothers and sister have spent all our lives in? Yet now we have seen recent "incommers" get permission on plots, shacks, so easy with none of all that?

 

[Filthyfarmer]

DrWazzock your right, its also, the new people who have just moved into that "nice" house in the village, that are so apposed to any mention of new builds, "affordable" housing, for youngsters who were born in the village but now cant afford the prices? I cant? Its only the fact, that at great cost, trouble, made to jump through all sorts of hoops to prove the need and vaiablity, of my holding that i was reluctantly given permission to build an agricultural "workers" dwelling on my holding? (in a village my father lived in during ww2 as a young boy, in the village that has his older brothers name on the war memorial, ( he was killed in italy 2 weeks before the war ended), in a village that ive and my brothers and sister have spent all our lives in? Yet now we have seen recent "incommers" get permission on plots, shacks, so easy with none of all that?

Called NODAMS
No other development after mine.............

 

[Gadget]

Yet now we have seen recent "incommers" get permission on plots, shacks, so easy with none of all that?

So often the case.

 

[Nearly]

Called NODAMS
No other development after mine.............

Yes. Had one new farmworker's 'cottage' occupant complain at 5 new houses next to them.
The local builder applying for the 5 houses was ready to ask the occupant of the new farmhouse how many bags of milk powder they had ever bought for their new 'calf rearing unit' that their justification was based on.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

much easier/cheaper to blame farmers.

That's simplistic and wishful thinking. If farming isn't a source of pollution, then spending on grants for slurry systems (as an example) would be pointless, plus the real pollution you are claiming would continue.

It seems ridiculous to have combined sewers in a high rainfall country like this.

 

[som farmer]

That's simplistic and wishful thinking. If farming isn't a source of pollution, then spending on grants for slurry systems (as an example) would be pointless, plus the real pollution you are claiming would continue.

It seems ridiculous to have combined sewers in a high rainfall country like this.

farmers are a relatively low cause of pollution

the major culprits get away with it, just because they can.

but its easy to blame the farmer

nothing will really change, until people become 'hungry', whether caused by shortage or price. Then all these petty things, will disappear quicker than floodwater.

a hungry man has 1 problem, a full one, has many.

 

[DrWazzock]

DrWazzock your right, its also, the new people who have just moved into that "nice" house in the village, that are so apposed to any mention of new builds, "affordable" housing, for youngsters who were born in the village but now cant afford the prices? I cant? Its only the fact, that at great cost, trouble, made to jump through all sorts of hoops to prove the need and vaiablity, of my holding that i was reluctantly given permission to build an agricultural "workers" dwelling on my holding? (in a village my father lived in during ww2 as a young boy, in the village that has his older brothers name on the war memorial, ( he was killed in italy 2 weeks before the war ended), in a village that ive and my brothers and sister have spent all our lives in? Yet now we have seen recent "incommers" get permission on plots, shacks, so easy with none of all that?

Tell me about it! We’ve had exactly the same here. The biggest objectors are those we didn’t object to and let build houses in our village. Now they object to everything. As agricultural and forestry workers we are expected to clear off.

 

[DrWazzock]

It costs a fortune to get anything done in this country but it costs nothing to stop things.
Where do people think this will lead us?

 

[som farmer]

It costs a fortune to get anything done in this country but it costs nothing to stop things.
Where do people think this will lead us?

in the deep and murky

when we reach the bottom of the cycle, the pendulum will swing the other way, and things will alter.

read an article years ago, basically saying exactly what you quoted, health and safety, stringent rules, high wages etc, will price us out of the market. That market will be taken over by countries where there are extremely few rules and regs, very low wages, and no fancy add ons.

those countries then begin to become more affluent, rules and regs begin to creep in, wages rise, peoples expectations rise, until they price themselves out of the market.

then the impoverished countries that used to supply the goods, have cut rules and regs, now have lower wages, learnt they cannot have everything, and can now undercut the new rich countries.

the more l think of it, the more l can believe it, in fact, you can see it happening already, in the so called tiger economies in the east.

 

[som farmer]

Tell me about it! We’ve had exactly the same here. The biggest objectors are those we didn’t object to and let build houses in our village. Now they object to everything. As agricultural and forestry workers we are expected to clear off.

our rich neighbour, went around the local area, with pre written letters of objection, when we applied for a bungalow, and denied doing so, even when presented with the proof. We got p/p.

but its what we have to put up with today, and l really wish we didn't have to. As l get older, l just don't have the patience to deal with some of the idiots.

probably earnt the 'miserable rude cantankerous old git' handle, with many of the local new comers. Its easier to say no, politely in the beginning, as nastily in the end. Experience has taught me, if you do 1 favour, they expect you to do everything they want, usually for nothing, when they want.

now, the good ones, l do help, just wish there were more of them.

we farm land adjacent to two different villages. One village, full of foot paths, are polite, interested, and helpful, great, the other village, again f/paths, are the polar opposite

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

farmers are a relatively low cause of pollution

the major culprits get away with it, just because they can.

but its easy to blame the farmer

nothing will really change, until people become 'hungry', whether caused by shortage or price. Then all these petty things, will disappear quicker than floodwater.

a hungry man has 1 problem, a full one, has many.

There's evidence that farming causes pollution and even more evidence that water companies allow pollution. Both these are caused by society.

Inevitably, considerable resources will have to be spent to prevent all pollution.