Planning Applications, PD and the like (General Chat)

To quantify my position, I am a smallholder and a Associate Planning Consultant with a Kent based Planning Consultancy.

I am quite happy to discuss planning issues in the forum as a member of the farming community and my comments should not be taken as gospel or used in official correspondence. If you want professional advice to help with a specific problem please feel free to PM me.
 

fiddler

Member
Hi Georgie,

My folks want to build a small barn in the paddock beside their house (6.0m x 11.0m) to store old furniture, bikes and a tractor or two. The paddock and house are within a village, but the village has no development/settlement boundary, so the land is technically classed as open countryside.

Before we ask for pre-application advice, is there anything we should be aware of or avoid saying?

Thanks
 
Hi Georgie,

My folks want to build a small barn in the paddock beside their house (6.0m x 11.0m) to store old furniture, bikes and a tractor or two. The paddock and house are within a village, but the village has no development/settlement boundary, so the land is technically classed as open countryside.

Before we ask for pre-application advice, is there anything we should be aware of or avoid saying?

Thanks
If you are going down the pre-app route it is always best to lay your cards on the table and let the officers advise you. In terms of what to say, DON'T try to pull the wool over their eyes, they have seen it all and won't be fooled.

If you intend to apply under Permitted Development (PD) for the barn it would need to be primarily for agricultural use and you would have to justify its size in relation to the land it serves; for example, they should not allow PD for a 120x80 on a 5ha holding! For PD the minimum agricultural area must be 5ha and the building must be sited on a plot of no less than 1ha of agricultural land. If you are unsure if you could get it under PD, ask the question during the pre-app.
If PD isn't an option then full planning will be required and planning fees will depend on if the land is classified as part of the residential curtilage (part of the garden) or as agricultural land; again it is best to ask at the pre-app stage.

It would be best to have a plan of the proposal (nothing fancy) to hand at the pre-app to give to the officer so they have something to refer to when they are writing their report.

Most councils websites have an interactive map where you can put in your address and it will give you details on any restrictions (Green Belt, AONB, TPO's etc) in the vicinity of your property, just double check you aren't covered by anything nasty. It may also be prudent to use their online planning search to have your property and the neighbours planning history to hand.

Above all else, don't treat these guys as dummies, they do this every day of the week (well some of them!) and will see through any ulterior motives.

If you want any more help on this specific case drop me a PM and I'll try point you in the right direction.

George
 
Last edited:

Still Farming

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Glamorgan Wales
If you are going down the pre-app route it is always best to lay your cards on the table and let the officers advise you. In terms of what to say, DON'T try to pull the wool over their eyes, they have seen it all and won't be fooled.

If you intend to apply under Permitted Development (PD) for the barn it would need to be primarily for agricultural use and you would have to justify its size in relation to the land it serves; for example, they should not allow PD for a 120x80 on a 3ha holding! For PD the minimum agricultural area must be 0.4ha. If you are unsure if you could get it under PD, ask the question during the pre-app.
If PD isn't an option then full planning will be required and planning fees will depend on if the land is classified as part of the residential curtilage (part of the garden) or as agricultural land; again it is best to ask at the pre-app stage.

It would be best to have a plan of the proposal (nothing fancy) to hand at the pre-app to give to the officer so they have something to refer to when they are writing their report.

Most councils websites have an interactive map where you can put in your address and it will give you details on any restrictions (Green Belt, AONB, TPO's etc) in the vicinity of your property, just double check you aren't covered by anything nasty. It may also be prudent to use their online planning search to have your property and the neighbours planning history to hand.

Above all else, don't treat these guys as dummies, they do this every day of the week (well some of them!) and will see through any ulterior motives.

If you want any more help on this specific case drop me a PM and I'll try point you in the right direction.

George
Thought barn had to be 400m from residenial also unless Full planning application was required -maybe just Welsh veiws/policy ?
 

fiddler

Member
If you are going down the pre-app route it is always best to lay your cards on the table and let the officers advise you. In terms of what to say, DON'T try to pull the wool over their eyes, they have seen it all and won't be fooled.

If you intend to apply under Permitted Development (PD) for the barn it would need to be primarily for agricultural use and you would have to justify its size in relation to the land it serves; for example, they should not allow PD for a 120x80 on a 3ha holding! For PD the minimum agricultural area must be 0.4ha. If you are unsure if you could get it under PD, ask the question during the pre-app.
If PD isn't an option then full planning will be required and planning fees will depend on if the land is classified as part of the residential curtilage (part of the garden) or as agricultural land; again it is best to ask at the pre-app stage.

It would be best to have a plan of the proposal (nothing fancy) to hand at the pre-app to give to the officer so they have something to refer to when they are writing their report.

Most councils websites have an interactive map where you can put in your address and it will give you details on any restrictions (Green Belt, AONB, TPO's etc) in the vicinity of your property, just double check you aren't covered by anything nasty. It may also be prudent to use their online planning search to have your property and the neighbours planning history to hand.

Above all else, don't treat these guys as dummies, they do this every day of the week (well some of them!) and will see through any ulterior motives.

If you want any more help on this specific case drop me a PM and I'll try point you in the right direction.

George
Thanks George, sound advice.

We will proceed with the application as planned.
 

Still Farming

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Glamorgan Wales
The Government National says-wants-encourages their policy and veiws.
The trouble is regional and cross borders Government interpret it differently and Local Authorities do what they like ???
 
In Appeals most prob .?
The NPPF is the overarching document that governs planning. Local Planning Authorities (LPA's) have a duty to ensure their Local Plans which govern planning adhere to the NPPF. When a local plan contradicts the NPPF it is considered 'out of date' and the policy reverts to the NPPF.
The NPPF outlines planning in general terms such as where as the local plans go into the finer detail but can never contradict the NPPF.

When we write our planning statements we always quote the planning policies from both the NPPF and Local Plans and state how we have interpreted the policies for our application. By doing this the planning officer would have to disprove our interpretation to refuse the application based on that policy. If we didn't do this we would then be leaving the officer to draw his own conclusions on the interpretation of the policy.
 

Kidds

Member
So if a local plan says "no new development/building within the village" it would contradict the NPPF and therefore the LPA would have to follow the NPPF and disregard the Local Plan?
(I am assuming the NPPF cannot support a no new dwellings policy)
 
So if a local plan says "no new development/building within the village" it would contradict the NPPF and therefore the LPA would have to follow the NPPF and disregard the Local Plan?
(I am assuming the NPPF cannot support a no new dwellings policy)
That will be a local policy which will not be covered in the NPPF as it can not be something that is a nationwide rule otherwise we would have no development in ANY village.
As I mentioned before the NPPF is more of a general set of rules than the local plans.
I must point out that when a Local Plan is drawn up it is reviewed by an independent body to ensure it is fit for adoption, it is not the Local Authority making rules for itself without anyone checking.
 

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