Ploughing and organic or round up and no till?

[mikep]

Just taken this quote from another thread here by @New Puritan
And before anyone seizes on the "p" word, my land is certifiedorganic and, at present, there reallydoesn't seem to be a way to be min or no-til and organic, but that's a subjectfor another thread perhaps...

So why not? But not the usual type of thread perhaps. Please read on.

There is some research coming through that cultivations are more damaging than herbicides in soil health, as the above points out at present there of no realistic way of really going no till organically so almost by default no till is based on glyphosate.
Now both systems put the health of the soil first and both have great merit but are mutually exclusive.
Now to me this is total bullsh it and where I think holistic comes in.
To me holistic is taking the approach needed to achieve your aims by the least damaging route.
I submit that any action in farming by definition is damaging to the soil as soil wants to be a forest floor which is not much use to any society but hunter gatherers.
So all cultivations and additions are 'bad' and need keeping to the minimum. Most farmers do this as all actions have a monetary cost to be avoided.
Now no till farmers don't cultivate much but do add synthetic inputs whereas organic cultivate a lot and use fewer inputs. It seems to me that they are really of equal merit from a nature point of view as diesel, steel and invertion are as bad for us and the environment as are nitrates and triazoles etc so why are the soil association trying to steal the moral high ground?
It's purely marketing and why not they are a business after all so it think it is time to try to herd cats and see if we can get enough common ground to lay some holistic common ground with a view to getting a framework for our views any ideas?

 

[The_Swede]

There is a similar sort of 'holistic conservation ag' model in Switzerland I believe - I cant recall the name but has featured in Nuffield stuff reported on here previously so sure someone else will be along with it shortly. If memory serves one of the key 'attributes' of this scheme is no glyphosate though - they can reliably use frost kill for cover crops etc etc.

To play devils advocate a little Zimmer et al actually claim 'considerate cultivation's' to be necessary in some (he says the majority) of soils to keep things oxygenated and so 'healthy' and biologically active... perhaps one for another discussion but thought i'd throw it in. Oscar project does give examples of genuine organic min-till, more prevalent in mainland Europe certainly (fundamentally drier than here?) Friedrich Wenz also springs to mind, Yatesbury in Wiltshire too.

 

[New Puritan]

Thanks @mikep, and @Jason... So my farm is very small and organic. I'm new to farming but have always wanted to run an organic farm. However I'm not totally set in my ways - if I could be persuaded to not be organic I wouldn't be, though I'd have to find some different land as it's required by my tenancy. My farm is small enough that it is (i) no way ever going to provide my whole income; but therefore (ii) I don't mind taking a few risks as the day job has to cover the bills anyway. I'm really interested in trying niche crops and different soil management techniques just to test if my long-held ideas actually stand up to practical application.

I run a 6 year rotation of 4 years cropping and 2 years grass / clover ley. The first two years are cereals, so I am wondering if I could get away with min-til between years 1 and 2; and maybe between 2 and 3. If I stubble rake after harvest of year 1, then rake again 2 weeks later and then drill into that, I wonder if I can beat the weeds? There are always going to be some weeds in an organic system, it's just getting the plants I want to grow to have a head start. Or will this be a total failure?

I don't think I could always do min-til, what with the 2 year ley, but if over the course of the rotation there was slightly less than 5 passes of the plough (+ everything else) surely that would be better? Or does any ploughing immediately undo any good that missing the previous year's ploughing may have done, in terms of mycorrhiza? I may have just talked myself out of doing it thinking that actually...

 

[mikep]

There is a similar sort of 'holistic conservation ag' model in Switzerland I believe - I cant recall the name but has featured in Nuffield stuff reported on here previously so sure someone else will be along with it shortly. If memory serves one of the key 'attributes' of this scheme is no glyphosate though - they can reliably use frost kill for cover crops etc etc.

To play devils advocate a little Zimmer et al actually claim 'considerate cultivation's' to be necessary in some (he says the majority) of soils to keep things oxygenated and so 'healthy' and biologically active... perhaps one for another discussion but thought i'd throw it in. Oscar project does give examples of genuine organic min-till, more prevalent in mainland Europe certainly (fundamentally drier than here?) Friedrich Wenz also springs to mind, Yatesbury in Wiltshire too.

I don't doubt some cultivations may be necessary at times and really this is my whole point. If you have aims as opposed to rules then you can factor this in. I would love to not have to spray as it is tedious and expensive but spray I must but the bare minimum.
We don't have extreme enough weather to rely on winter or summer kill so it's either cultivation or chemical.
I can understand that there may be some perfect farmers somewhere that can manage to no till without round up but 99.9%can't.

 

[mikep]

Thanks @mikep, and @Jason... So my farm is very small and organic. I'm new to farming but have always wanted to run an organic farm. However I'm not totally set in my ways - if I could be persuaded to not be organic I wouldn't be, though I'd have to find some different land as it's required by my tenancy. My farm is small enough that it is (i) no way ever going to provide my whole income; but therefore (ii) I don't mind taking a few risks as the day job has to cover the bills anyway. I'm really interested in trying niche crops and different soil management techniques just to test if my long-held ideas actually stand up to practical application.

I run a 6 year rotation of 4 years cropping and 2 years grass / clover ley. The first two years are cereals, so I am wondering if I could get away with min-til between years 1 and 2; and maybe between 2 and 3. If I stubble rake after harvest of year 1, then rake again 2 weeks later and then drill into that, I wonder if I can beat the weeds? There are always going to be some weeds in an organic system, it's just getting the plants I want to grow to have a head start. Or will this be a total failure?

I don't think I could always do min-til, what with the 2 year ley, but if over the course of the rotation there was slightly less than 5 passes of the plough (+ everything else) surely that would be better? Or does any ploughing immediately undo any good that missing the previous year's ploughing may have done, in terms of mycorrhiza? I may have just talked myself out of doing it thinking that actually...

There are some organic farmers who use min till but really it's max til as aggressive tools such as discordons are used. I think a good plough and light tickle on top would be less damaging than a full profile stirring.
Good luck to you and if you manage let us know.

 

[The_Swede]

Breaking the ley phase is obviously the most challenging aspect, and acceptance (or control) of weeds that can germinate from deeper than the scratch till employed needs thought - i'm thinking wild oats mainly.

Yatesbury mostly run with a shallow vibroflex, varying the width of point used according to situation, this is reasonably 'minimalistic' in my view.

Wenz has his shallow (4 wheeled depth controlled) rotovator among the ecodyn tools and drills

I think the question @New Puritan and @mikep are asking is whether multiple very shallow passes with a terrastar or similar is reliably workable in practice? This I would like to know too! Economic and effective mechanical glyphosate basically? Only one way to find out I suppose... it will doubtless involve an old turbo-tiller or similar here though rather than a new Claydon machine!

 

[The_Swede]

Miserable day and in office - had a look over IP-Suisse earlier, my Swiss German is not great but google translate and a bit of intuition / assumption helped...

Nice summary of how it works here;

http://www.pan-europe.info/old/Resources/Reports/Pesticide_Use_Reduction_Strategies_in_Europe.pdf

Anyway, not quite as simple as no glyphosate, its potential use (under the banner of autumn herbicides) is restricted though. Other hormones, insecticides and so on are simply not allowed.

Leaving the detail aside the key benefit of this scheme is that it pays a definite premium and is a respected 'brand' - not like our red tractor which is just the baseline requirement if you actually want to sell!

If UK is going down the 'Holistic' route something like this must be the model... LEAF is very good and noble but aside from OSR a few years back no premium... we must talk up and be paid for our higher standards not just allow it to be imposed as the norm at standard commodity pricing - especially post Brexit with seemingly free reign on imports.

 

[7610 super q]

Have any organic no- tillers been doing it for longer than 10 years ?

 

[Dan Powell]

The strength of the organic brand is that it's clearly defined in that no artificial pesticides and fertilisers are used (except for when they are...) People choose organic because they believe the food is safer because it hasn't been sprayed with stuff they don't understand.

Very difficult to do this with conservation agriculture. As soon as you use a sniff of glyphosate, well you may as well go the whole hog and use four fungicides, an insecticide or two, some weedkiller and 200kg of artificial N on your crops like everyone else, because that is the market you are selling into.

If you think you can create a market for stuff that's been grown in healthier soil, then great but I don't think the general public understand or care enough about the benefits to the wider world at the moment. We may be at the beginning of something here but we need high profile sponsors or government backing to get it to the point where people will pay attention.

 

[The_Swede]

The second scenario you describe is basically the Swiss system -Sadly I fully agree with your point re difficulty of implementation with the majority of the British public though.

 

[New Puritan]

@Jason - I don't know much about the Swiss system, though the name sounds vaguely familiar. Looking through their website, it all seems quite sensible but like you and @Dan Powell say, it's hard to then sell this to the public.

There are a few schemes that are sort of between Red Tractor and organic around, but I don't know how much the public know about them. There's Leaf that you mentioned earlier, but there's also Conservation Grade, and I'm sure I recall Dorset Cereals (or was it Jordans?) having something similar at one point. There's also Stockfree Organic, which is an add-on to organic status where no animal products have been used. It all just comes down to what cost / effort you need to go to in order tp achieve these standards; and what the resulting price premium is.

@7610 super q - what would your concern be if they had done this for more than 10 years?

Getting back to the orginal point, I'd be really interested to hear from other people how they have got on with combinations of minimal inputs and minimal cultivations. Do places like Rothamstead (or Elm Farm) research this stuff?

 

[spin cycle]

i'm going to vote for ploughing and round up

 

[mikep]

i'm going to vote for ploughing and round up

I'll raise you a shakerator, gyrotiller and chlorpyriphos

 

[7610 super q]

@Jason - I don't know much about the Swiss system, though the name sounds vaguely familiar. Looking through their website, it all seems quite sensible but like you and @Dan Powell say, it's hard to then sell this to the public.

There are a few schemes that are sort of between Red Tractor and organic around, but I don't know how much the public know about them. There's Leaf that you mentioned earlier, but there's also Conservation Grade, and I'm sure I recall Dorset Cereals (or was it Jordans?) having something similar at one point. There's also Stockfree Organic, which is an add-on to organic status where no animal products have been used. It all just comes down to what cost / effort you need to go to in order tp achieve these standards; and what the resulting price premium is.

@7610 super q - what would your concern be if they had done this for more than 10 years?

Getting back to the orginal point, I'd be really interested to hear from other people how they have got on with combinations of minimal inputs and minimal cultivations. Do places like Rothamstead (or Elm Farm) research this stuff?

We were organic for 28 years. The longer time went on, the more problematic perennial weeds (docks, thistles, couch) became. Without the use of the plough, I'd imagine problems would arise in a no-till system after 7 years.

 

[spin cycle]

I'll raise you a shakerator, gyrotiller and chlorpyriphos

fold

 

[Farmersdaughter]

I think rather than trying to stick to strict rules, it might be better to focus on the end product being better. I like what these guys are doing in Australia.http://www.greenpasturesmovement.com.au/the-green-pastures-movement/
They say "Our healthy milk comes from healthy cows, fed a healthy diet of healthy grass grown with healthy fertiliser. That means our cows are exposed to less chemicals like synthetic fertilisers, insecticides and herbicides. Happy, free-range cows producing delicious, tasty, healthy milk with nothing added and nothing taken away. It’s milk produced the way it should be – naturally! If you care about the way your food is farmed and processed, then this is the dairy milk for you."
They don't say it is free from fert or spray but that they use less.
I am not sure if they have done tests to show it is more nutritious, but would interested to see if they have.
Recently been to Greame Sait seminar, and like his trade mark of nutrition farming.

 

[mikep]

Reason I wrote this is that i have a new project to bring to market next year which is firmly in the organic playing field but I want to put a good distance between them. The organic brand is highly esteemed but the soil association is now run by a bunch of twits that think good promotion is just running everybody else down. I thought that an alternative offering that seeks to tread lightly and care for the environment may get some traction but the devil will always be in the detail.
I describe my system as holistic and find that when explained along with no till it is received very well. I am a bit wary about the use of the term in promotional material but as it has no legal meaning I think I will continue and put it into print, it's just what to say as I don't want to pee off too many people (unless I have to).

 

[Dan Powell]

The fact that "Holistic" has no legal meaning is definitely in your favour - you can define terms anyway you like.

What is the original definition of organic? Is ivermectin an organic compound. Is potassium sulphate? No, but they have defined a system that allows these, so you can define a system any way you like so long as it gains traction in the customers' eyes. Marketing is the tricky part as ever.

Pasture for life is another brand that may or may not succeed in the way organic did - its message is very simple - the animals just eat pasture / forage. Anyone can understand the concept, so I think the only battle they have to win is whether it is better for the planet and the health of the consumer that this is the way that the animals are raised. A few pictures of cows and calves enjoying life in a sunny wildflower meadow and their work is almost done.

A spade full of well structured soil with a high earthworm count is a lot harder to sell even though it's a more important concept.

Good luck with it though, we need something like this to differentiate what this type of farming can achieve when done right. I'm still struggling with doing it right, but I would feel a lot more confident about dropping certain inputs altogether (e.g. insectides and fungicides) if I knew there was a premium for the product at the end.

(Edit - ivermectin is an organic compound in chemistry terms but not "natural" if you see what I mean)

 

[mikep]

The fact that "Holistic" has no legal meaning is definitely in your favour - you can define terms anyway you like.

What is the original definition of organic? Is ivermectin an organic compound. Is potassium sulphate? No, but they have defined a system that allows these, so you can define a system any way you like so long as it gains traction in the customers' eyes. Marketing is the tricky part as ever.

Pasture for life is another brand that may or may not succeed in the way organic did - its message is very simple - the animals just eat pasture / forage. Anyone can understand the concept, so I think the only battle they have to win is whether it is better for the planet and the health of the consumer that this is the way that the animals are raised. A few pictures of cows and calves enjoying life in a sunny wildflower meadow and their work is almost done.

A spade full of well structured soil with a high earthworm count is a lot harder to sell even though it's a more important concept.

Good luck with it though, we need something like this to differentiate what this type of farming can achieve when done right. I'm still struggling with doing it right, but I would feel a lot more confident about dropping certain inputs altogether (e.g. insectides and fungicides) if I knew there was a premium for the product at the end.

(Edit - ivermectin is an organic compound in chemistry terms but not "natural" if you see what I mean)

Pretty much nails it and like you I am still struggling to get it right but feel I am going in the right direction.
It's a definite marketing advantage but also a poke at organic holier than thou attitude as I feel it can take the higher ground in non destructive soil care.
I will have a think and put something up for all to ponder

 

[The_Swede]

Some reading here re worms and tillage practices @New Puritan , I'm not surprised by the results. Even in organic scenario you must keep things shallow if you want to hold onto the anecic types and provide surface residue for others.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ic_farming/links/559e488608ae04e365093e97.pdf