Ram lambs vs shearling tups

[neilo]

I tend to keep away from lambs because in the past if I have taken a chance on one, the change in 'lifestyle' has resulted in just a plain awful beast. The Suffolk lamb I bought last autumn is fairing well, though.

Most are over fed and over pushed for sales, because nobody wants tiny tup lambs...

My view, depending very much on the breeder and their personal ethos - the shearlings may be the poorer lambs which are kept back, but they've been treated better and left to develope on their own, which means when you buy them they won't (shouldn't) be dead in a years time and will do off grass much better without severe condition loss when working.

Bear in mind that a lot of shearlings are fed every bit as hard as any lamb, but for far longer. They will get hit by that 'change of lifestyle' every bit as hard. I remember one breeder bragging that he'd managed to get his yearling rams up to 14lb of concentrates a day. Even if he was using a bit of poetic licence (as a lot do in the 'pedigree' world), they were only going to go one way.

 

[andybk]

really this thread is about knowing your breeder , good and bad both ways , you cant do that comparing in a sale ring ,and to pick up on the vote choices, size is irrelevant for a finished 40kg lamb , i was a bit late weaning some of the april ones one year , the ram lambs would have only been 35kg at best prob nearer 30 , but they got 10 ewes back in lamb and some of their offspring were in the first cut at sedgemore following spring.
I expect there will be 100kg + ram lambs next sat at worcester that will be infertile .good place to go if you want to see excessive feeding (only been on grass honest guv )

 

[neilo]

really this thread is about knowing your breeder , good and bad both ways , you cant do that comparing in a sale ring ,and to pick up on the vote choices, size is irrelevant for a finished 40kg lamb , i was a bit late weaning some of the april ones one year , the ram lambs would have only been 35kg at best prob nearer 30 , but they got 10 ewes back in lamb and some of their offspring were in the first cut at sedgemore following spring.
I expect there will be 100kg + ram lambs next sat at worcester that will be infertile .good place to go if you want to see excessive feeding (only been on grass honest guv )

This Saturday Andy. I'd hate you to miss it.....

 

[Nithsdale]

Bear in mind that a lot of shearlings are fed every bit as hard as any lamb, but for far longer. They will get hit by that 'change of lifestyle' every bit as hard. I remember one breeder bragging that he'd managed to get his yearling rams up to 14lb of concentrates a day. Even if he was using a bit of poetic licence (as a lot do in the 'pedigree' world), they were only going to go one way.

Hence why I said my view depends on the breeder and their ethos.

Some places, it won't matter what you buy the outcome will always be the same.

Thankfully i have a breeder I buy from who do their stock in a way I'm happy with, and their tups do damned well with me.
Just a headache they've now sold the farm and are winding down - one of the main reasons I bought my own pures again

 

[andybk]

This Saturday Andy. I'd hate you to miss it.....

tbh i was going to visit this year , but i won tickets to a concert sat night from BBC , and i'm going to France to buy another ram or two next month , in case the shutters come down or become more difficult in a few years time , so wont make it .
The ram lambs i bought last year grew on , doubt they would from the prem , present company excepted

 

[Joe]

tbh i was going to visit this year , but i won tickets to a concert sat night from BBC , and i'm going to France to buy another ram or two next month , in case the shutters come down or become more difficult in a few years time , so wont make it .
The ram lambs i bought last year grew on , doubt they would from the prem , present company excepted

Trip to the Irish premier so Andy, make week of it Ireland weekend and then direct to Lyon for following Friday sale

 

[andybk]

Trip to the Irish premier so Andy, make week of it Ireland weekend and then direct to Lyon for following Friday sale

Keep Workmans busy if i got tempted in both , lol ,

 

[neilo]

tbh i was going to visit this year , but i won tickets to a concert sat night from BBC , and i'm going to France to buy another ram or two next month , in case the shutters come down or become more difficult in a few years time , so wont make it .
The ram lambs i bought last year grew on , doubt they would from the prem , present company excepted

I bought a lamb at early Builth last year, weighing 99kg when I got him home. I see he'd just got back to it by the end of May.....

 

[Guiggs]

Just a headache they've now sold the farm and are winding down - one of the main reasons I bought my own pures again

Could you buy some of his breeding stock from him to try and effectively breed what he was selling you for yourself?

 

[Nithsdale]

Just a headache they've now sold the farm and are winding down - one of the main reasons I bought my own pures again

Could you buy some of his breeding stock from him to try and effectively breed what he was selling you for yourself?

She's been winding down the flock for a few years - they are beyond retirement age. The son has taken on a % of her sheep and is continuing, but is taking them in a different direction.

It's her rams I have and am using as my stock tup, so I'm not fussed about getting ewes from them - but they've never offered any up, just killing what they don't need/like.

 

[Guiggs]

She's been winding down the flock for a few years - they are beyond retirement age. The son has taken on a % of her sheep and is continuing, but is taking them in a different direction.

It's her rams I have and am using as my stock tup, so I'm not fussed about getting ewes from them - but they've never offered any up, just killing what they don't need/like.

And besides that they have that yesterday breed the texel don't they?
As we all know, it's all about the Suffolk these days for the progressive sheep farmer!

 

[Nithsdale]

And besides that they have that yesterday breed the texel don't they?
As we all know, it's all about the Suffolk these days for the progressive sheep farmer!

There's a Suffolk female sale in a fortnight

 

[Guiggs]

There's a Suffolk female sale in a fortnight

Well you'll obviously be there in your roll of " new wave Suffolk society " chairman so it would be rude to go home empty handed!

 

[Ysgythan]

We buy ram lambs in Lanark. No lamb there will have wanted for anything. Its a test of stockmanship to see beyond the spray tan and condition. It's another to get them through the inevitable check of a long journey, two days of hell and another long journey. As we don't show, stock rams are kept fit not fat. We use them on the pedigrees and to sweep the Mule embryo recipients.

For all the challenges though I wouldn't ever buy a shearling. You can buy a shearling maker lamb but you can't buy a shearling to make good lambs.

 

[liammogs]

Its funny really the pure/ped boys all favour lambs; suppose new genctics come through quicker etc, but comercial lads want a shearlings; can cover more ewes etc but could be the poor %of the breeders stock from the year before just pamperd! Thus not helping in fat lamb production....i can see the arguements for and against and agree with a lot has been said!

 

[liammogs]

I know a comercial farmers want somthing able to cover as many ewes as possible, so say for arguments sake shearling tup is £600.....would two ram lambs at £300 be better spread the cost and spread risk (one goes lame etc)

 

[neilo]

Its funny really the pure/ped boys all favour lambs; suppose new genctics come through quicker etc, but comercial lads want a shearlings; can cover more ewes etc but could be the poor %of the breeders stock from the year before just pamperd! Thus not helping in fat lamb production....i can see the arguements for and against and agree with a lot has been said!

Don't forget that most pedigree breeders in this country don't have many ewes for him to cover anyway. Personally, I'd never use a bought in ram lamb heavily anyway, until I knew what he was breeding. I'd use a homebred lamb far more heavily, but still not as extensively as a proven ram.

As far as covering ewes is concerned, I will happily put 1 ram lamb out per 50-70 crossing ewes in November and would fully expect them to do the job without losing excessive condition. After a month, they get slung out with the running tups on grass then roots, where they will be impossible to pick out from the mob in a month or so. I have done the same with Highlander lambs from @RobP and with NZ Texels from @easyram1 . All depends how they have been reared. You don't find those types at ram sales though, as they won't have been pushed hard enough to be big enough/have filled out enough, to compete on appearance.