Red tractor stakeholder survey on governance

[neilo]

Do you honestly think rt, ever made any real difference to the publics perception of food safty

I have no doubt whatsoever that farm assurance, as it originally was, did exactly that.
It was a simple tick box by an inspector (originally market auctioneers/fieldsmen in our case) that certified that we were doing everything by the letter of the law. This was at a time that our customers had lost confidence in buying British beef.
It was one of a number of measures that slowly rebuilt confidence in our product.

 

[DrWazzock]

With the benefit of hindsight I know that, and you know that but, at the time, UK (& foreign) consumers were blaming UK Ag and stopping buying our output in their droves.
Something had to be done to reassure them, and FA was undoubtedly one of the things that helped to do that.

Things have moved on now though, and FA has tried to carve out an existence by supplying certification where none was needed.

Well yes I do agree RT possibly served a purpose as a confidence rebuilder but ironically all of the real restorative measures were taken beyond the farm gate : banning of offal in feed, removal of infective tissue from carcasses, burning of cattle over 30 months.

 

[neilo]

I was selling bull beef at auction when bse, became concerning the price stoped about 35 to 40 penc per kg, by around 3 years later it had returned to what it was so irony think this rt, stiffness a scrap of difference same as most things confidence grows over time. it is now confidence is growing that rt, should be side stepped and scraped.

So it was good that ‘farm assurance’, in it's original form, rebuilt confidence that we, as UK farmers, were playing by the rules?

As I posted above, it has snowballed since then, to become the parasite on our industry that RT is. FA undoubtedly served a purpose at the time, thirty years ago, but it is no superfluous. Cut it loose.

 

[DrWazzock]

I have no doubt whatsoever that farm assurance, as it originally was, did exactly that.
It was a simple tick box by an inspector (originally market auctioneers/fieldsmen in our case) that certified that we were doing everything by the letter of the law. This was at a time that our customers had lost confidence in buying British beef.
It was one of a number of measures that slowly rebuilt confidence in our product.

I really can’t remember RT having much to do with building confidence if I’m honest but maybe it did. All I remember is as I’ve said, are the various off farm measures in the feed supply trade and carcass processing industries. What did we actually do differently on farm other than got beast away earlier. I think with sheep there was genetic testing to purge susceptible bloodlines but these were initiatives well outside of RT.

 

[neilo]

Well yes I do agree RT possibly served a purpose as a confidence rebuilder but ironically all of the real restorative measures were taken beyond the farm gate : banning of offal in feed, removal of infective tissue from carcasses, burning of cattle over 30 months.

All that was part of rebuilding confidence. FA just showed that everything was in order on our side of the farm gate.
All those measures were needed, together. Consumer confidence in our product was on the floor, completely.

 

[Old apprentice]

So it was good that ‘farm assurance’, in its s original form, rebuilt confidence that we, as UK farmers, were playing by the rules?

As I posted above, it has snowballed since then, to become the parasite on our industry that RT is. FA undoubtedly served a purpose at the time, thirty years ago, but it is no superfluous. Cut it loose.

I don't think that at all.

 

[DrWazzock]

If RT had stuck to its original food safety remit I probably wouldn’t be complaining about it now but it mushroomed massively.

 

[DrWazzock]

All that was part of rebuilding confidence. FA just showed that everything was in order on our side of the farm gate.
All those measures were needed, together. Consumer confidence in our product was on the floor, completely.

Ok. Agreed. It served a purpose at the time.

 

[SilliamWhale]

All that was part of rebuilding confidence. FA just showed that everything was in order on our side of the farm gate.
All those measures were needed, together. Consumer confidence in our product was on the floor, completely.

Rubbish. People were still buying and consuming British produce plentifully. It was a media storm

 

[tepapa]

If RT had stuck to its original food safety remit I probably wouldn’t be complaining about it now but it mushroomed massively.

It was seen as a easy target by the BRC and it's members to gain advantage in the market all at the expense of the primary producer.

 

[neilo]

I really can’t remember RT having much to do with building confidence if I’m honest but maybe it did. All I remember is as I’ve said, are the various off farm measures in the feed supply trade and carcass processing industries. What did we actually do differently on farm other than got beast away earlier. I think with sheep there was genetic testing to purge susceptible bloodlines but these were initiatives well outside of RT.

All part of a package of measures.

Yes, sheep had a National Scrapie Plan, which tested for, and removed, scrapie susceptible genotypes from the national flock. That happened even though there is no evidence whatsoever that NvCJD or BSE had any link to scrapie in sheep.
Scarily, and I have posted this before, researchers at the time found evidence of BSE in all of the sheep’s brains that they looked at, ‘proving’ a species jump to the extent that they were on their way to Brussels with the evidence to get permission for a cull of the entire UK sheep flock!
Thankfully, at the eleventh hour, somebody realised that the brain samples they’d been looking at were in fact from cows that had died of BSE.
It really was that close.

You really couldn’t make it up, but such was the panic at the time.

 

[neilo]

Rubbish. People were still buying and consuming British produce plentifully. It was a media storm

I take it you weren’t selling beef animals or cull cows in the nineties?

 

[soapsud]

Looking ahead, and putting people's pet proposals for a slimmed down FA scheme to one side, what's the next step after the second NFU surveys come back in?

It can't just be a presentation of findings i.e. the statistical results from the questions answered?

This external review only came about because RT pictured itself as a mediator between landowners and the corporate processors/retailers - which as we all know, is the first step to incorporate business property rights of all the lands throughout the UK into the wider greening economy. We all know why their first step suggesting the voluntary GFC did not go down well. So what will the review say?

What will the lessons learnt be?

The communication people think its a communication problem. The strategists think its a marketing problem. The NGOs think its a policy problem.

Can TFF/BFU influence this review to make recommendations that farmers are going to want to hear?

It's very early days obviously.

 

[neilo]

Rubbish. People were still buying and consuming British produce plentifully. It was a media storm

It was a media storm, but HM Govt was also ready to pull the plug on us, such was the fear of NvCJD, as modelled by their chief scientist.

 

[yellowbelly]

Thankfully, at the eleventh hour, somebody realised that the brain samples they’d been looking at were in fact from cows that had died of BSE.

IIRC, some Defra bod didn't know the difference between bovine and ovine

 

[texelburger]

That’s not entirely true. FA came about to reassure the public, our customers, at a time when trust in UK ag was on the floor.
Yes, we know in hindsight that the press and certain ‘scientists’ blew it up out of all proportion, but the UK public blamed us for BSE, which they were led to believe was going to kill millions.
Farm Assurance came about to reassure the public, our customers, that we were all adhering to the rules, and it served that purpose admirably imo.
As to premiums, in those early years we saw a fiver a head premium on FA lambs, which made it an absolute no brainer as we were doing everything necessary already. Aside from that early premium, FA served a valuable purpose in allaying concerns in the nineties.

However, assurance schemes have evolved since then, so that they no longer just assure that we are producing according to required uk legislation. They have clearly gone beyond the original remit, without returning sufficient/any premium for doing so, the governance having been hijacked by BRC.

Since FA came into being, uk legislation has also been tightened up considerably, so we are legally obliged to do more than the original FA ever asked for.

Time to cut it loose.

Professor Lacy devastated our meat industry at the time with his wild predictions.


I think with RT the BRC has become more and more influential as time has gone by,aided by Jim Moseley,and the NFU seem to be like a rabbit in the headlights.I'm not sure a change at the top will help.The structure of the NFU needs to change with regards to how members get elected.
I don't think hardly anyone attends our local branch meetings,the NFU seems to be dying at grass roots level.

 

[Badshot]

I just watched Mr bates on the box.
He stood up to the post office, he's slowly winning, he's got further to go.

This situation isn't that different really, an organisation that's got out of hand and thinks it's untouchable and unaccountable, it can't be allowed to continue bringing in more and more nonsensical rules and costs, it has to be stopped.

We left Europe because of the tyranny that dictated over us, we can do the same again.

Oh, and we do not need to be farm assured to grow flowers for SFI.

It's possible to sell beasts unassured already.

Sod the lot of them.


I could do that, and then go on holiday for a change.

 

[egbert]

All part of a package of measures.

Yes, sheep had a National Scrapie Plan, which tested for, and removed, scrapie susceptible genotypes from the national flock. That happened even though there is no evidence whatsoever that NvCJD or BSE had any link to scrapie in sheep.
Scarily, and I have posted this before, researchers at the time found evidence of BSE in all of the sheep’s brains that they looked at, ‘proving’ a species jump to the extent that they were on their way to Brussels with the evidence to get permission for a cull of the entire UK sheep flock!
Thankfully, at the eleventh hour, somebody realised that the brain samples they’d been looking at were in fact from cows that had died of BSE.
It really was that close.

You really couldn’t make it up, but such was the panic at the time.

Glad it's not only me that remembers that shameful little episode.

Mind, they never wholly let it go, which is why we still put electronic chips in sheep tags, just in case.
I daresay they'll finally drop that soon....I expect the NFU will be lobbying hard for it............oh.

 

[neilo]

Glad it's not only me that remembers that shameful little episode.

Mind, they never wholly let it go, which is why we still put electronic chips in sheep tags, just in case.
I daresay they'll finally drop that soon....I expect the NFU will be lobbying hard for it............oh.

There’s a fella down your way that’s done very well out of it. I don’t suppose he’d like to see it stopped, having worked so hard to get it implemented…

 

[SilliamWhale]

I take it you weren’t selling beef animals or cull cows in the nineties?

Red Tractor did not solve that. The evidence that the modelling was rubbish did that