Reseeding grass for suckler cows, why bother ?

[M-J-G]

N doesn't need to come from a bag, every % of SOM can release 8kg N/ac if well managed.

Clover (again if well managed) can produce 60kgN/ac.

At a conservative estimate to allow for less than ideal farming practices.

With a SOM of 3% x 8kgN- 24kg
W clover- 50kg
Total 74kg N

It is highly unlikely that old PP will use that level of N so some if the excess is highly likely to just be wasted through leaching, particularly in high rainfall areas.

If grass is just yellow stems it would suggest poor farming practices.

I'm not sure why it's often assumed that ploughing is required to establish a new ley or improve an old one.
There are many different methods to do this that are lower cost and don't need to disturb soil structure.
That soil disturbance could improve overall soil health and up natural N production.

New longterm leys could improve clover and provide a grass swad that could harness and utilise the aforementioned natural N.

 

[Kevtherev]

how much per acre do you think it costs, by applying contractors rates ? @kill

I put the cost at £100/acre but its so long since I done any I may be way
out
perhaps @Kevtherev would have an idea too ?

Approx figures
Grass seed £50 acre
Ploughing £22-5 acre
Power Harrow £20 acre
Rolling £10acre
Lime at £30 ton
Plus fert and labour with other machine work Harrow etc you are probably on £200 an acre now
Rough fag packet figures

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Approx figures
Grass seed £50 acre
Ploughing £22-5 acre
Power Harrow £20 acre
Rolling £10acre
Lime at £30 ton
Plus fert and labour with other machine work Harrow etc you are probably on £200 an acre now
Rough fag packet figures

Since you put up costings I will be the first to say "you forgot" fags to have a packet

Or do you boys from Wales use other people's packets to perform these calculations?

Can we still say fag - it's 2018

 

[Kevtherev]

Since you put up costings I will be the first to say "you forgot" fags to have a packet

Or do you boys from Wales use other people's packets to perform these calculations?

Can we still say fag - it's 2018

Unsure of that pete?
Figures for contracting vary in areas.
Main computer seems to work ok most of the time [emoji23][emoji41]

 

[Kevtherev]

Oh and don’t forget your own labour is a cost often overlooked on many farms.
Sometimes a contractor coming in to plough can be more economical than hitching your own up.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Unsure of that pete?
Figures for contracting vary in areas.
Main computer seems to work ok most of the time [emoji23][emoji41]

"Fag Packet" refers to something else entirely down here usually a modified car full of "emo kids" with stupid shoes and questionable tendencies

Sorry if my comments above have trodden on toes - pretty straightforward answer is yes new seeds will grow more tucker
yes old grass will be back at some point
yes changing the way we graze eliminates much expenditure

It all depends on what outcomes we want, most young grass paddocks are soon completely overgrazed because they are tasty and full of juice, and most managers are happy to overgraze and waft the products at it great for the GDP

 

[Henarar]

Approx figures
Grass seed £50 acre
Ploughing £22-5 acre
Power Harrow £20 acre
Rolling £10acre
Lime at £30 ton
Plus fert and labour with other machine work Harrow etc you are probably on £200 an acre now
Rough fag packet figures

on those figures for plough based reseed here
grass seed £50
plough £25
powerharrow £40
rolling £30
so £145/acre

I didn't include lime and fert as you would/should put that on if you reseeded or not ?

Seems a lot of money, make that about 10% more cows

I am not against ploughing and reseeding if it fits your system, we will have to do some more to level out fields or at least parts of fields, I wouldn't entertain anything bar a long term mix
On the fields that don't need levelling I would be much more open to over sowing or hharrowing or DDing rather than ripping it all up we have done this in the past with good and not so good results

 

[Henarar]

It all depends on what outcomes we want, most young grass paddocks are soon completely overgrazed because they are tasty and full of juice,

I think it can be to good for suck cows, next thing you are feeding straw to stop them running out and that's more expensive than silage here,
if it don't stop in them long does it do them any good ?

 

[kill]

how much per acre do you think it costs, by applying contractors rates ? @kill

I put the cost at £100/acre but its so long since I done any I may be way
out
perhaps @Kevtherev would have an idea too ?

Well over double that as , Lime £30 a ton x1-2 ton an acres, seeds a £67 an acre (Organic), ploughing an power harrowing at around £25ish each, 8 passes with drags as hate rough ground and rough leys, £15 an acre for grass drilled and 3 x rolling and discing where needed but it's properly reseeded

 

[bobk]

Lime better not be £30 a ton ffs .

 

[simmy_bull]

But with proper nutrition, grazing and cutting, that 50% fescue can become a 100% ryegrass/clover ley.

Without sowing any new seed????

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I think it can be to good for suck cows, next thing you are feeding straw to stop them running out and that's more expensive than silage here,
if it don't stop in them long does it do them any good ?

Depends greatly on who you ask and what they buy and sell, to be fair.
But I definitely know that a cow's sh!t holds most of the answers - they seem to also do OK on what "the forage experts" would say "has lost quality" - but they think from a scientific comparison / harvesting perspective, not a grazing animal foraging and selecting - hence there is never a simple answer to questions... both are right but cows are better eating than scientists

Makes for a great thread when it isn't as simple as pounds and pence because many see things in that way alone, and thus do themselves out of the profits they try to create, that much is very evident....

I do laugh when you see someone who has cut off their free reseed then feeding hay/straw soon after - they probably think it was a "well managed surplus" but it is more simple how I see it - distrust of natural ecological processes and cycles
Quite incredible the problems that arise from assuming we know better than nature, from suck cows that can't birth a calf to animals that can't get fat off grass - much as I try not to look at the carnage I cannot help myself.... too much cash without reason.

I think therein lies proof that subsidy has successfully hospitalised agriculture
but only when you let it.

 

[kill]

Lime better not be £30 a ton ffs .

Spread it is down here. Have to have ridgid tippers for access which makes it £1.50 a ton dearer

 

[simmy_bull]

Well over double that as , Lime £30 a ton x1-2 ton an acres, seeds a £67 an acre (Organic), ploughing an power harrowing at around £25ish each, 8 passes with drags as hate rough ground and rough leys, £15 an acre for grass drilled and 3 x rolling and discing where needed but it's properly reseeded

That sounds an awful lot of passes over the ground? Would a couple of power Harrow passes not produce the desired smoothness?

 

[Kevtherev]

Roll plenty as the furrows settle over winter producing rough fields.

 

[Dragon]

Grass seed £50
Spray + glyp £12
Direct drill £22
Roll £10

£84
Haven't done it myself but seen the result. I'd thought lime was a yearly cost not just attributed to reseed

 

[Top Tip.]

Grass seed £50
Spray + glyp £12
Direct drill £22
Roll £10

£84
Haven't done it myself but seen the result. I'd thought lime was a yearly cost not just attributed to reseed

This way also keeps all the organic matter and goodness it contains on the surface rather than burying it with the plough.

 

[Henarar]

Without sowing any new seed????

Its amazing how it will change over the years if you change the management

 

[anzani]

Not run off like you get in a ploughed field
I think what causes it is greensand under the clay moving when it gets wet but I don't know this for sure. The topsoil don't move but drops in big dips or ledges. We have one field that you could park a t20 in and not see it lookig across the field. Dad said it was quite flat 70 years ago. It only happens in certain bits of certain fields

You anywhere above the Somerset coal levels? (Radstock)

 

[M-J-G]

This way also keeps all the organic matter and goodness it contains on the surface rather than burying it with the plough.

I'd consider a pass with a GLS, but like lime, it's not nescessarily a cost associated with reseeding.