Reseeding grass for suckler cows, why bother ?

[Poorbuthappy]

Always remember the slide from a Charlie Morgan talk showing 3 paddocks side by side - all grazed to potential. Set stocked IIRC. None had been sprayed and each were pretty consistent at the start of the experiment. 1 had no inputs and was covered in weed, 1 had fert and was a bit cleaner, and 1 had fert and lime and was a lovely clean looking field, and, as you'd expect, carried a whole lot more stock.

I'm not against reseeding, and indeed do some, but am quite interested in how much pp can be improved without actually doing a reseed.
Quite noticeable when I used to creep feed a lot how strong the grass was around the feeder, and how much more ryegrass there was there.

 

[Henarar]

You anywhere above the Somerset coal levels? (Radstock)

no, near the Devon boarder on the Blackdown hills

 

[Kevtherev]

After cutting @Henarar would it be an idea to scratch some clover in?

 

[Henarar]

Thought I would come back on these points Pete

it depends much on what you were thinking of planting and how its persistence would be on your soil type there, @Henarar ?

Always just used a long term ley with clover nothing special

The next thing is, would you like to run more cattle or are you quite happy with the numbers you run now?

we have near double the numbers we had a few years ago and have doubled the shed capacity both have happened over the years and at the same time land has come up local to rent and buy to get the grass from, I do have plans to add a bit more shed capacity and keep a few more but if we up production or take on more land depends on what comes up and the price, I am in no hurry

Are 10% more cattle on 5% less effective grazing area going to boost your profits?

I wouldn't want to be at the limit of what we could keep here, I think that running at 10% under that is more productive for me

 

[Henarar]

After cutting @Henarar would it be an idea to scratch some clover in?

yea was thinking just that sort of thing Kev

 

[unlacedgecko]

But I would like to work it harder than the current set stocking. If we can do that without reseeding that would be great.

Electric fence sub division and rotational grazing.

 

[Top Tip.]

I'd consider a pass with a GLS, but like lime, it's not nescessarily a cost associated with reseeding.

Sorry I’m being really thick but what is a GLS?

 

[Kevtherev]

Sorry I’m being really thick but what is a GLS?

 

[M-J-G]

Sorry I’m being really thick but what is a GLS?

Sorry, Grassland Subsoiler

 

[Top Tip.]

View attachment 673312

I think we probably have too many stones for one of them

 

[hendrebc]

I think we probably have too many stones for one of them

Someone i know had one on demo to see if it made a difference to their ground. They have a very big tractor and always have all the windows closed and radio turned up. They also have very little common sense. They absolutley trashed it in the one field and sent it back im told it was beyond repair but i dont know if thats true

 

[M-J-G]

That would take a lot of doing, and I'd say it would be much easier to wreck a strong plough.
But I guess some people could be that stupid.

 

[M-J-G]

I think we probably have too many stones for one of them

They are only suitable on land that could be ploughed.

 

[kill]

View attachment 673312

Even an arerator will help as after this last wet winter and having some field lice (sheep) in for keep for a while when it was very wet they have capped the ground surface and slowed production.

 

[kill]

That sounds an awful lot of passes over the ground? Would a couple of power Harrow passes not produce the desired smoothness?

Power harrows do nothing to firm ground or move/level soil unlike drags that still sort and level ridges and dips.
Awful lot of people think one pass of drags will suffice and don't know how to use them properly. I always start with 3 passes on the outside round and then work half the width of drag's out into the middle on each pass until headlands are broken and then work across the furrow rolling it harder over of such and coming back on what's already been worked and each time only taking half the width of the drags on to untouched ground and back on pre dragged ground and when done repeat on the line the Plough had run so hence 8 passes and smooth field's

 

[Lovegoodstock]

The variables as always contribute to whether r seeding is viable. As in I saw near 200/acre to reseed, im bang on 100/acre, using contractor, be it brother in law. Also saw a post of money better spent elsewhere like on lime, well yes, reseeds lime deficient will still produce more, but produce more of under performing grass, so obviously inefficient. Area of country will greatly affect efficiency of reseeds, with months of grazing and growth potential. Remember nearly year ago, a very polite member on here, knocking me on my lamb performance, uncrept lambs being killed at 12/14 weeks at 44 kilos. Almost as if he was accusing me of lieing he spoke of my magic grass that must be the reason, again as if he was almost accusing me of bulls##t well having clipped last couple of days, I would have 40/50 lambs uncrept 13 weeks weighing between 44 and 56 kilo. I was shocked with the few extreme weights, but ok singles but that puts them at, off the top of my head, over 500g a day weight gain? So performance is untouchable? But if then you waste grass and don't graze/ utilise it, even top it, a gross inefficiency. But what do people have as stocking rates? I genuinely don't have a clue. I may be great, maybe awful. Run 800 acres. Last 6 months, next 6, I will grow 80 acres of maize for selling, 40 acres of barley to sell, will purchase 600 bales of straw, grow 90 acres of one cut silage, run 1300 ewes/ewe lambs, 600 head of cattle, 250 cows ,rest calves/ yearlings/ few bought stores, ground for hay making, acreage a complete guess depending on year, often buy in some

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Always remember the slide from a Charlie Morgan talk showing 3 paddocks side by side - all grazed to potential. Set stocked IIRC. None had been sprayed and each were pretty consistent at the start of the experiment. 1 had no inputs and was covered in weed, 1 had fert and was a bit cleaner, and 1 had fer and lime and was a lovely clean looking field, and, as you'd expect, carried a whole lot more stock.

I'm not against reseeding, and indeed do some, but am quite interested in how much pp can be improved without actually doing a reseed.
Quite noticeable when I used to creep feed a lot how strong the grass was around the feeder, and how much more ryegrass there was there.

Quite amazing what animal impact does, that is why set stocking is nowhere near reaching potential of the pasture - overgrazing and undergrazing just happen if grazing is uncontrolled, and the tastier plants are weakened as a result... trampling is a very "fair way" of evening out sward compostition, a hoof knows not what it is pushing in.

Thought I would come back on these points Pete


Always just used a long term ley with clover nothing special

we have near double the numbers we had a few years ago and have doubled the shed capacity both have happened over the years and at the same time land has come up local to rent and buy to get the grass from, I do have plans to add a bit more shed capacity and keep a few more but if we up production or take on more land depends on what comes up and the price, I am in no hurry

I wouldn't want to be at the limit of what we could keep here, I think that running at 10% under that is more productive for me

I am amazed what simply grows in older pasture if you start impacting the soil surface to the right degree at the right time... I would spin on seed before the animals come and let them stitch it in / eat some and crap it out / cover it with mulch but to have any success grazing needs to be planned and controlled properly ahead during and afterwards.
Overgrazed grass is harder to purposely overgraze to that "sulking" effect as it is well used to it... species like dogstail, fog, fescue and cocksfoot handle poorly managed grazing far better than ryegrass, which is why ryegrass "runs out" and they persist - animals leave some behind, it goes to seed at different times, so it survives when farmers stop ryegrass reproduction from happening.
*in bold type is the clue farmers miss but ranchers can't afford to.
(Rotational grazing per se is not the answer but planned grazing that's what I'm trying to evaluate on that other thread.)

Nature doesn't need seed buried 2 inches deep in the turf or require everything else must die - they are farmer requirements only .
(And Adolf, bless him for being as mad as a farmer, he wanted was to be smarter than natural processes - but at least we all accepted his methods weren't ethical, killing and burying the evidence in the name of progress!)

when you see what "unproductive" grass is capable of doing for itself you get a glimpse of the power folk are scared of; and what they are actively fighting against in many cases, because they see a monoculture as the way forward, still!!

--this is only one small example of what proper recovery time allows to happen; if you are in no great hurry I believe you can push your envelope in more effective ways than trying to fight what is already workin' - with machinery - at your cost.

Personally I would build more shed, work what you need to get levelled out and continue doing what you do well, buy in some feed or land if and when the need arises.... but working out what you want is the first step in the process... don't get in a taxi and say "take me for a drive"

Permanence is what permanent pasture is all about, easily moulded to what you want but for fudge's sake don't rip it up - farmers have been paid a lot of money and done just that hence the moaning about droughts and floods - you cannot beat nature's ways of managing water and mineral cycling.
It isn't the weather's fault they are pretty clueless about nature and what it is teling them to do: management creates these inneffective water cycles (production blindness and being out of touch with what is happening) and everyone then suffers in some way - erosion, dirty creeks, leaching, more irreplaceable energy required to grow the nutrition - I blame your dumb governments since the war for not realising what they were doing, glad you saw past it.

Sorry about the big rant, it wasn't necessary or kind to do so, but it's still relevant as to why 20% of farmers in the world run 80% of the profitable area - being in touch with the reality of permaculture is a useful survival technique and far ahead of agricultural methods in terms of input/output: sun has the energy, nature has the design....
....difficult to argue with history.

That's about all I will say as it was meant to be about grass - not why farming is unsustainable using present methods and thinking, the beginning of the end was a long time ago... about the time we started fearing "wasteage" of grass, it only gets recycled - sorry @Lovegoodstock but I disagree that recycling grass is inefficiency - spending money on managing surplus/deficit, by comparison, is hugely inefficient compared to letting the soil store/use that carbon for free.

 

[M-J-G]

I took on a 50ac block of PP land 5 years ago. The block struggled to keep rotationally 30 cow and calves and later in the season didn't keep them going at all.
Considering that I was cutting other land for silage for these cows, the stocking rate will have been close to 1 cow and calf unit per 2.5 acres, by the time silage is taken.

On another improved block there was 25 cows running on 24 acres, with 10 of the acres taken for first cut silage at the end of May.

In Sept both lots needed extra grass, so the stocking rate gets fuzzy.

But as a comparable study for the Apr to Aug
The cows on PP have a rent allocation of £133 per cow calf unit plus a further rent for silage ground.
The cows on newer leys, are around £76 per unit on rent with around half of the silage for the group conserved off those acres during that period.
Leaving roughly £60/year (more if you cost silage) which would more than cover reseeding costs every 5 years.

All inputs were equal where 8000lt of pig slurry was applied in per acre to each paddock after 1st grazing.

Maybe those who own their farm can run extensively, but if you have a rent to allocate to an enterprise the land has to earn the best keep possible. IMO PP land needs to be about a third the rent of improved grassland, or it needs to be improved.

 

[Kevtherev]

Say for arguments sake you plough up or DD into an old pasture some high production grasses maybe Italians hybrid ryegrass and clover.
You will get 2 cuts of hay and silage with very little Nitrogen input.
Also the cost of a new ley at say £200 per acre all in,that ley lasts 6 years =£33 per acre per year.
Plus the extra grazing days.

 

[Henarar]

The variables as always contribute to whether r seeding is viable. As in I saw near 200/acre to reseed, im bang on 100/acre, using contractor, be it brother in law. Also saw a post of money better spent elsewhere like on lime, well yes, reseeds lime deficient will still produce more, but produce more of under performing grass, so obviously inefficient. Area of country will greatly affect efficiency of reseeds, with months of grazing and growth potential. Remember nearly year ago, a very polite member on here, knocking me on my lamb performance, uncrept lambs being killed at 12/14 weeks at 44 kilos. Almost as if he was accusing me of lieing he spoke of my magic grass that must be the reason, again as if he was almost accusing me of bulls##t well having clipped last couple of days, I would have 40/50 lambs uncrept 13 weeks weighing between 44 and 56 kilo. I was shocked with the few extreme weights, but ok singles but that puts them at, off the top of my head, over 500g a day weight gain? So performance is untouchable? But if then you waste grass and don't graze/ utilise it, even top it, a gross inefficiency. But what do people have as stocking rates? I genuinely don't have a clue. I may be great, maybe awful. Run 800 acres. Last 6 months, next 6, I will grow 80 acres of maize for selling, 40 acres of barley to sell, will purchase 600 bales of straw, grow 90 acres of one cut silage, run 1300 ewes/ewe lambs, 600 head of cattle, 250 cows ,rest calves/ yearlings/ few bought stores, ground for hay making, acreage a complete guess depending on year, often buy in some

Lots of talk of stocking rates and so forth but I don't really know much about it. We use to have to work out livestock units for Suckler payment but I forget how to do it
Some folk seem to need to see everything in numbers before they can move on. I can never remember numbers anyway sometimes you need a calculator sometimes you need to open your eyes

Been told I do old fashioned farming and I spose its right
But if the farmers of times gone by hadn't got something right would we be here